bukary on 15/2/2014 at 15:08
I've watched this video once again, checked my drawn map once again and... I really do hope that this map is not representative of the whole game level design.
It is, as with any other Thief game, a "tunnel design" (with walls disguised as city buildings), but (and here's the difference) there are literally no "real" intersections here: there is not one place where Garrett could turn left instead of right or vice versa. We are talking about Call-of-Duty-linearity (with lots of cutscenes) in this area. Even some Call of Duty city maps were less linear, because one could walk around the buildings and not only between them.
The only choice the player has in this area: how will I handle the jeweller's building? There are no choices regarding the exploration. Compare this to some original Thief missions where you also had to get from point A to point B (Ambush, Life of the Party):
Inline Image:
http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080107173957/thief/images/7/73/T2_M5_map_PAGE002.jpgThere was some linearity in Life of the Party (thieves' highway), but the player did not feel as restricted, because all traversed areas were really huge and offered mini-nonlinearity within them. There's only one such area in this gameplay (excluding interior of the jeweller's building) and it is much smaller than the ones from Thief 2.
This small city section is also divided in two loading zones. If you look at the map, it is obvious that the designer could take advantage of lower left and upper right part of the map (which are blank) in order to create a better exploration experience and several different routes to the clocktower. It did not require hundreds of hours of work and testing. So... why wasn't it done? Because of technology limitations (small loading zones)? Because players would not notice it?
Linearity of level design and limitations of exploration are my main concerns about new Thief. This level is as linear as TDS city streets. And the last 1/3 of it does not even pretend that it is not a tunnel. Unfortunately. We'll see if the whole city is like that.
Here's how this map could look like in order to make it less linear and more interesting and replayable:
Inline Image:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/31/9rbr.jpgLarge map (
http://imageshack.com/a/img31/7915/9rbr.jpg) here.
Poetic thief on 15/2/2014 at 15:46
There *is* something missing indeed when it comes to ambient sound. Of course, not everyone cares about that kind of stuff, but for me, mood, atmosphere and ambience is a huge huge part of my attraction to a game. Could also be that I'm a musician/composer, so sound in general is more important to me than it might be to other people. Lord Bafford's Manor was a tone poem, the level in that video was just your typical stealth game fare.
Platinumoxicity on 15/2/2014 at 15:51
I noticed something that might be a flaw in the control interface. The playthrough is on PC, right? At 12:28, it looks like the player is attempting to pick up the letter from the table, but opening the drawer instead. In console games, due to the objectively inferior aim accuracy of analog sticks, interaction aiming reticle needs to be wider. In the previous Thief games, the reticle was pretty narrow, and worked fine, especially because there was a very clear "frob highlighting". I think the unnecessarily wide interaction reticle has made its way from the console version to the PC, and made the game interface less intuitive than it should be.
I actually can't remember... is there frob highlighting in Thief 4? If there is, it's disabled in these promo videos. But if the player in the latest really did not intend to open the drawer before picking up the letter, then there's a flaw in the control interface. The kind of contextual actions that involve picking up items and activating things by aiming at them are acceptable because of the specificity. But even that can be designed wrong, if you don't have precise enough aiming, or sufficient interaction feedback systems. Frob highlighting is a good feature, and on PC the interaction reticle should be very narrow. If I want to pick up a small piece of paper, I will aim towards it. Not into the general direction of it with a 60° margin of error. I believe this same subject came up with the dragging of bodies in the very first gameplay video. A body on the ground is not a small target. The player is perfectly capable of aiming at it to pick it up.
Specter on 15/2/2014 at 18:21
Quote Posted by Tomi
Eh? Because I'm not okay with the Claw being silent, like I just explained?
The claw makes a rather loud noise when it clangs against that metal thing, whereas the footsteps during the swoop don't. No inconsistency there.
The problem as I see it is that the distance and speed he travels in one swoop is far too great to be done on foot. That he seems to duck a bit when doing it makes me think its supposed to be a combat roll type of thing, and that would be noisy. Doing it backwards is harder to explain unless he were turning to face behind him before the leap, which he is not based on the camera. At the end of the day, it can be explained however you like, but the biggest issue for those opposed is that its too easy. When one can do that, you remove part of the challenge of movement. If you justify it only with 'its realistic', then you open the door to any number of abilities that, while realistic, should not be in the game. In my opinion.
FatSpy on 15/2/2014 at 18:57
Quote Posted by Vae
I see...so you're for having the auto-silent Swoop super-ability, which completely defeats any "move silently" challenge...yet, you're okay with the Claw also being auto-silent when using the contextual climbing lattice markers.
...How do you explain this logical inconsistency?
I think the claw is fine, but the swoop ability is stupid for gameplay reasons. I mean seriously, if everytime you tried to parkour an area you'd have this loud clang noise that would be stupid. Imagine that in the original thief. It might not be realistic but who the hell cares about that?
However being able to quickly dodge out of the area silently seems like it could be used to nullify things like timing and positioning. "You can turn it off" though I guess.
murphyj on 15/2/2014 at 20:08
Quote Posted by FatSpy
I think the claw is fine, but the swoop ability is stupid for gameplay reasons. I mean seriously, if everytime you tried to parkour an area you'd have this loud clang noise that would be stupid. Imagine that in the original thief. It might not be realistic but who the hell cares about that?
However being able to quickly dodge out of the area silently seems like it could be used to nullify things like timing and positioning. "You can turn it off" though I guess.
Can you actually turn it off, I don't recall that particular detail anywhere.
Even if it can't be turned off you could unbind the key and play without it.
june gloom on 15/2/2014 at 20:11
A dismissive Family Guy meme. Congratulations. I'm waiting for your point.
Goldmoon Dawn on 15/2/2014 at 20:25
He was displaying the sentiment, shared by others as well, that arguing with someone about using all caps to spell Thief is pretty (bottom of the barrell) trivial.
nickie on 15/2/2014 at 20:34
So, as this appears to have nothing to do with the Lockdown mission, take it to the Everything that's wrong with Thief 4 thread.
