Goldmoon Dawn on 14/6/2013 at 04:12
Quote Posted by Shinrazero
Checkpoint saves seem to be the industry standard these days and I honestly don't understand it. Bioshock Infinite employed this, as a recent example. So many nights where I just wanted to save and go to bed but NO! I had to make sure an autosave occurred. Sigh.
I am looking forward to laughing heartily at youtube whence the abonimation is birthed to the masses. However, in the one in a million chance they make a classic in the vein of Thiefs heritage, Ill check it out.
Renault on 14/6/2013 at 04:14
I think of how many times I quicksaved in Thief, before I attempted a long jump, or a rope arrow shot, or an assault on a Haunt, or several dozen other things. It's fun to go back and try new methods and strategies, I can't imagine why devs would want to eliminate these types of possibilities. What is the downside to a "Save Wherever You Want" system? There must be a reason everything is so checkpoint based these days.
Shinrazero on 14/6/2013 at 04:23
Exactly man!
Renzatic on 14/6/2013 at 04:40
Quote Posted by jtr7
Thief has been Dishonored, Assassin's Creed'ed, Tomb Raider'd, (I cut the list short here), rebooted in every way people generally dislike reboots, but with all the fucked up excuses for just bending over and taking it like it's inevitable and idiotically as if there's no other way, and we are all obligated to thank them very hard and monetarily for their glorious contribution to our worlds. It's the new religiosity.
See, the problem is is that about 70% of everything you complain about is in your head. There's absolutely no Tomb Raider influences in any of the videos we've seen. The only thing Assassin's Creed is the radial menu, and the PC version probably won't even get that. Dishonored? It's pretty much Thief with a magic assassin. The dash/swoop move or whatever you call it can't be compared to blink, since one shoots you 200 yards across the map, whereas the other is a quick roll that puts you about 5 feet away from where you started.
There are issues with the game. The XP system is completely out of place, the talk of quick time events worries me, the cloak and flash effect is annoying, I want to be able to shoot rope arrows wherever I want, not just in predefined locations. These are things I've seen from the videos that I didn't like. They're grounded in reality. From my perspective, the game looks like Thief coupled with some bad design choices.
You? You're arguing against some strawman Thief that's playing over and over in your head. It's like you close your eyes and see a Garrett with 500 pounds of armor on rocket jumping across a post apocalyptic landscape while getting chased by devil dogs, then go on here to talk about how EM has ruined the game by making it like Quake cuz that's what
The Masses love.
Fafhrd on 14/6/2013 at 04:45
Quote Posted by Brethren
There must be a reason everything is so checkpoint based these days.
Storage space being severely limited on consoles, mostly. With a checkpoint save the only thing the save file has to have is Checkpoint X + some inventory data (and player health, if it doesn't auto-regenerate). A manual save adds in position and facing, as well as positions, facings, and health and inventory data for every active AI (remember how big saves got in the original Deus Ex?). Checkpointing offloads all the AI stuff into hardcoded information on the game side. It also limits how long the writes take, which makes compliance with some of the messaging requirements of the console manufacturers easier.
Renzatic on 14/6/2013 at 04:57
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
Storage space being severely limited on consoles, mostly. With a checkpoint save the only thing the save file has to have is Checkpoint X + some inventory data (and player health, if it doesn't auto-regenerate). A manual save adds in position and facing, as well as positions, facings, and health and inventory data for every active AI (remember how big saves got in the original Deus Ex?). Checkpointing offloads all the AI stuff into hardcoded information on the game side. It also limits how long the writes take, which makes compliance with some of the messaging requirements of the console manufacturers easier.
Save for the cheap options which always come out later on, most consoles come with at least 40GB standard HDDs. Even the cheap options have 4-8GB installed, which is more than enough for save files.
I think it has more to do with that "never take the player out of the game" mindset that's so prevalent these days. You don't have to think about them. They're just there when you need them.
And yes, there are pros and cons to them. The pros being that they allow for more tension. You're no longer allowed to save before a particularly difficult part. You have to do it to the best of your ability, and try it again if you fail. In an RPG, if you make a bad decision, you've gotta live with it. This is why I like checkpoints and autosaves. It doesn't allow you to game the game, so to speak.
But, like Brethren said, it also cuts down on experimentation. If you want to try something else in a certain situation, you have to play to that point again from either the beginning of the game, or the beginning of the mission. That does suck a bit, but for me, the pros outweigh the cons.
Chade on 14/6/2013 at 05:09
Quote Posted by Brethren
*image of menu item containing a checkpoint load option with no other immediate load options*
I know. I want to know of Captain Spandex has any other evidence for his surprisingly confident assertion.
I don't find this picture very damning, because it's not part of the game they were intending to show us, so is there any particular reason to believe it's going to stay the same? At least with the parts of the game they want to show you, they should be trying to (at the very least) fake what the final experience is meant to be.
Also it's just one menu screen, and it's on console.
Quote Posted by Brethren
It [checkpoints] also is a strong indicator that the game will be somewhat linear, at least in parts.
Not entirely relevant, but I have to say, I hear this a lot, and ... maybe it is true, but I suspect it shouldn't be true.
I don't think it would actually be that hard to make an acceptable automatic saving system in a non-linear game. A timer, a few heuristics based on the game state, and
maybe a checkpoint grid, and you should be good to go.
Renault on 14/6/2013 at 05:25
Quote Posted by Renzatic
That does suck a bit, but for me, the pros outweigh the cons.
It's the reverse for me, I'd rather have the freedom and the choice, but to each their own. In an ideal setup though, we'd have both checkpoints
and player save slots.
Renzatic on 14/6/2013 at 05:39
Quote Posted by Brethren
It's the reverse for me, I'd rather have the freedom and the choice, but to each their own. In an ideal setup though, we'd have both checkpoints
and player save slots.
It's been awhile since I last played it, but I think DX:HR used both checkpoints alongside an autosave system. It's very possible we'll see the same here.
Quote Posted by Shinrazero
Are you unaware of the similarities or just refusing to acknowledge them?
Whoa. I was unaware. Didn't know the new Tomb Raider had that in there.
