Thief Gold vs. Thief 2 - by Hesha
Hesha on 11/2/2020 at 19:55
Not trying to start a fight or anything, but I've noticed in other discussions elsewhere on the internet, that there seems to be some disagreement on which is the superior title and obviously it is a matter of personal preference.
First of all: I love all the original Thief games and I am fully aware of the debt of gratitude all other stealth games owe to The Dark Project. That being said, however, I just replayed Thief Gold (on normal) and once I was done, I found myself in a weird place. I wanted to play more, but I didn't want to play it again. To explain what I mean:
Upon completion, I looked at my list of savegames and realised that there are barely any missions in Thief Gold I had any desire to play again. I forced myself to, because I was too lazy to install another game, but... it's strange. Thief Gold is certainly not as good as I remember it to be. And my memories of it aren't that old either, because when it first came out (I remember playing the demo and being blown away by the concept), I was so scared of the undead, I didn't actually make it past the second level until several years later. I couldn't do it, not even during daytime and with company. I can do it now, because I've learned how to deal with the undead, but I still don't enjoy those levels. I think this is the main reason why I prefer Thief 2 - no Zombies (almost).
Now, when looking at the list of missions in my savegames, I noticed two things especially.
1: Thief Gold is scarier than Thief 2. I don't just mean the zombies and haunted levels, I mean - overall. I find the first mission scary. I think this is probably because of the ambient sound, the suspenseful music playing all the way through the level? Not sure, I can't pin it down.
2: There are so many levels I just simply don't enjoy. Mostly, because of level design. Worst offenders are the levels added by Thief Gold, obviously. I find them just too large (The Guild), too repetitive (Mage Towers). These are probably the worst two, but I didn't enjoy Song of the Caverns, Bonehoard either. And then there are many levels where you don't get to do any actual thieving. Escape, Strange Bedfellows, Maw of Chaos - not terrible, but it's not Thief to me. You can't even buy equipment, so it's a bit silly that you can collect loot in these levels. What for, you never get to spend it.
The Sword and Undercover are the only two missions I would even consider good. Bafford's is okay, I'm of two minds about that one. I just replayed it and ghosted it for the first time (no alarms, no blackjacking, 100% loot, I guess that counts as ghosting?), that was kinda fun, so I might add this to the list. But the rest... I don't know. It's more of a chore. Return to the Cathedral is okay - once you know the shortcut to circumventing the second half of the level (yay, fetch quests!).
If I had to pick the top 5 levels in Thief Gold and Thief 2, they would all be Thief 2 levels (Party, Bank, Eavesdropping, Framed and either one of the Gervasius-missions (except I don't like the scary library sub-quest)). Undercover would probably be my highest-rated Thief 1 level, but it's also pitifully easy on Expert.
And then I realised something else... a pattern that seems to be true for me across all games. At least in stealth games. I enjoy it, as long as you're dealing with humans, but once it's about monsters, I stop enjoying the game. I looked back and realised that I felt exactly the same in Farcry, Crysis, Crysis 2, Thief Gold and even Thief 2 (final level has almost no humanoids in it). I don't play many modern games, so there are probably more games where this is true, Crysis 2 probably being the latest game I have played to this day.
Now I'm wondering... do others feel the same way? I mean... about the part of games where you're stealthy and deal with human enemies and then the part where the monsters show up and the game basically loses its stealth element?
ZylonBane on 11/2/2020 at 22:10
If you think Thief loses its stealth element when monsters show up, you're a bad thief. And a dumb thief. There should be a new, stronger word for the kind of thief you are, like "dumbad" or "badumb". Yes, this kind of thief is badumb. From this moment, I will stand for the opposite of that... "bmudab."
Hesha on 11/2/2020 at 22:14
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
If you think Thief loses its stealth element when monsters show up, you're a bad thief. And a dumb thief. There should be a new, stronger word for the kind of thief you are, like "dumbad" or "badumb". Yes, this kind of thief is badumb. From this moment, I will stand for the opposite of that... "bmudab."
Oh, wow. I was expecting just about any kind of response, but not just blatent abuse from some guy I don't know. Thanks for that, hope you're real proud of yourself for that.
klatremus on 12/2/2020 at 05:05
Lol never mind ZB, that's just his way of saying "welcome to the forum".
Although I largely disagree with your opinion, thank you for sharing. And even though this discussion is old and never ending, I haven't seen a comprehensive statement like yours in a while. Refreshing.
For me, several points heavily favor Thief Gold (I can't comment on TDP, because I never finished that release). First (and perhaps most importantly), nostalgia. This was the first game I played, and it blew me away. It will always trigger in me certain emotions, where I remember back to my first time getting caught by the dark, grimy atmosphere of The City. No video game has ever grabbed me in the same way since.
Second, level design. Yes, I'm using your argument against you. Quite frankly, I don't see how you use level design to argue for Thief 2. A few missions in that game are inventive yes, (Party, Cargo, Kidnap, Soulforge) but many of the others are very plain to me. The streets and houses seem unimaginative, some of them straight out boring. Much of the level design in Thief 2 is also very flat, where verticality is hardly even implemented. It almost becomes 2D maps. Compare that to levels like Cragscleft, Bonehoard, The Sword, Caverns, Mage Towers, even The Maw (although that's one of my least favorite in TG). They all use 3D level design in very clever ways. Also, the settings for the different missions in Thief Gold is so much more unpredictable. When you head into mines, caves, tombs, lost civilizations, ruined cities, everything becomes so uncertain. This coupled with the varied types of enemies (not just humans) in turn takes away a lot of the player's control, which makes it more unsettling and more tense. Once you put the player in the middle of nothing but man made buildings, with only human guards, noblemen, servants, etc, it becomes very dull very quickly to me. I feel in total control because I know what to expect, which takes away tension and removes the immersion.
Third, sound design. The use of sounds is on another level entirely in Thief 1. And seeing that this is one of the most important aspects of the Thief experience, it heavily favors the first installment in the series. The Sword is the pinnacle of sound design for me, with Song of the Caverns a close second. To compare to your top 5 list, only 2 missions from Thief 2 would make mine, Party and the Bank. And in a Top 10 from both games combined, 7 out of 10 would be from Thief Gold (Soulforge would sneak in 10th).
Again, I really appreciate your post. Although it's an old discussion, I never get tired of it. I hope others will chime in. ;)
Psych0sis on 12/2/2020 at 05:05
LOL. Well, at least the first part of his statement isn't wrong (if a bit tactless in presentation).
Starker on 12/2/2020 at 05:11
[video=youtube;9DW6Gz0N6Hs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DW6Gz0N6Hs[/video]
Hesha on 12/2/2020 at 10:44
Quote Posted by klatremus
Lol never mind ZB, that's just his way of saying "welcome to the forum".
Although I largely disagree with your opinion, thank you for sharing. And even though this discussion is old and never ending, I haven't seen a comprehensive statement like yours in a while. Refreshing.
For me, several points heavily favor Thief Gold (I can't comment on TDP, because I never finished that release).
First (and perhaps most importantly), nostalgia. This was the first game I played, and it blew me away. It will always trigger in me certain emotions, where I remember back to my first time getting caught by the dark, grimy atmosphere of The City. No video game has ever grabbed me in the same way since.
Second, level design. Yes, I'm using your argument against you. Quite frankly, I don't see how you use level design to argue for Thief 2. A few missions in that game are inventive yes, (Party, Cargo, Kidnap, Soulforge) but many of the others are very plain to me. The streets and houses seem unimaginative, some of them straight out boring. Much of the level design in Thief 2 is also very flat, where verticality is hardly even implemented. It almost becomes 2D maps. Compare that to levels like Cragscleft, Bonehoard, The Sword, Caverns, Mage Towers, even The Maw (although that's one of my least favorite in TG). They all use 3D level design in very clever ways. Also, the settings for the different missions in Thief Gold is so much more unpredictable. When you head into mines, caves, tombs, lost civilizations, ruined cities, everything becomes so uncertain. This coupled with the varied types of enemies (not just humans) in turn takes away a lot of the player's control, which makes it more unsettling and more tense. Once you put the player in the middle of nothing but man made buildings, with only human guards, noblemen, servants, etc, it becomes very dull very quickly to me. I feel in total control because I know what to expect, which takes away tension and removes the immersion.
Third, sound design. The use of sounds is on another level entirely in Thief 1. And seeing that this is one of the most important aspects of the Thief experience, it heavily favors the first installment in the series. The Sword is the pinnacle of sound design for me, with Song of the Caverns a close second. To compare to your top 5 list, only 2 missions from Thief 2 would make mine, Party and the Bank. And in a Top 10 from both games combined, 7 out of 10 would be from Thief Gold (Soulforge would sneak in 10th).
Again, I really appreciate your post. Although it's an old discussion, I never get tired of it. I hope others will chime in. ;)
Thanks :) I feel really welcome then :D
It's interesting how the very same things can be received so differently. I guess we are in agreement to a certain extent, though, for example in that Party is and excellent level and (I assume you agree with me here, since you didn't mention those levels) that Guild and Mage Towers are bad levels.
I have never considered it from that perspective, I mean the levels being truly 3D vs on a plane. Cragscleft is far more threedimensional than Party, but Cargo is pretty vertical, too, I think.
I think the core of our disagreement lies in what we want from a game or our individual needs. I love/crave
control. In T2 you are the undisputed master of your environment. You feel secure most of the time, because you know what you're doing and who/what you're up against and while you may be stressed at times (stumbling onto a metal beast or so unexpectedly), you're hardly ever scared in T2. You seem to enjoy immersion, even the horror aspects of the game more. So basically the very things that put me off TG are what you enjoy about it.
You mentioned your top 10... would you name them? I'd like to know how highly Party ranks for you.
RE: The last part of TG not being stealthy: I think I may have phrased this poorly. And my statement was based on the Crytek titles more so than on TG. In those games you come up learning how to sneak, how to headshot / necksnap human enemies from behind and then suddenly some kind of monsters show up and it just degenerates into a shoot-em-up game. I dislike that in all those games.
Obviously this is not exactly true for the Thief games, but to give my examples here:
T2, Soulforge: How exactly does it benefit to be stealthy here? You're much better off running around and getting stuff done. Raising the alarm will do nothing to make things harder, just about the only place where you may want to sneak is the room with all the nasty spiderbots.
T1, Escape: You get zero incentive to sneak in this level. Just run to the exit - who cares? It's also much easier to run to the exit, you can pick up the book on the way through.
T1, Maw: Even worse! Why would you do anything else than just run through the level? There is no reason to gather items or knock out opponents. Why would you even try to fight the marching chaos beasts? Just run, run, run, run until you get to the trickster.
T1, SB: worst offender! In this one, if you just run through it, you don't get that nasty sidequest to kill all of the bugsies. At least that's how it seemed to me.
To me the charm of Thief is to take your time, explore the level, maximise your loot and find secrets. This is ruinied in the above-mentioned levels by loot being irrelevant. If the goal of the mission is to get to X, then you just get there as efficiently as possible. And in the case of those beasty-levels, that means just running there. To me, at least.
Sneaksie on 12/2/2020 at 13:49
Quote Posted by Hesha
T1, Maw: Even worse! Why would you do anything else than just run through the level? There is no reason to gather items or knock out opponents. Why would you even try to fight the marching chaos beasts? Just run, run, run, run until you get to the trickster.
In TG Training there is an Easter Egg with developers quotes. I think this one answers your question completely.
Tim: "We want the endgame to be the climax of the mission. And you can't sustain a climax for 45 minutes. At least I can't."
Hesha on 12/2/2020 at 14:27
Quote Posted by Sneaksie
In TG Training there is an Easter Egg with developers quotes. I think this one answers your question completely.
Tim: "We want the endgame to be the climax of the mission. And you can't sustain a climax for 45 minutes. At least I can't."
It's pretty close to 45min, considerin how long and how slowly Constantine prances about at the end... :erg:
Anfortas on 12/2/2020 at 15:28
Quote Posted by klatremus
...
First (and perhaps most importantly), nostalgia.
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Second, level design
...
Funny, that I would have used those points to explain Thief 2 as the better game :D
The Thief 2 demo was among the first "real" games I have played on a PC. I have played it countless of times (and I still think it is better than the Life of the Party OM in the full game). I still remember the moment I bought the full version of Thief2 (and how expensive it was) and how I played it regularly for weeks. So Thief 2 will always have that nostalgic feel for me.
It actually took me quite a few years until I have played Thief1, and up to this date I have spent much more time playing Thief 2 than Thief 1/Gold (including FMs). The reason I enjoyed Thief 2 much more than Thief 1 is mostly the setting. I have never enjoyed scary or spooky games, so I always favored the City setting of Thief 2 compared to the crypts and tombs. While I agree with you, that Thief 1 OMs are more versatile than the Thief 2 OMs, it has never bugged me that most of the Thief 2 OMs have a similar setting/style. It's however quite interesting, that you point out how flat Thief 2 OMs compared to Thief 1 are. It never occured to me, but you are right, and I will never be able to ignore this fact from now on :D
Of course all those things are heavily subjective, but that's what makes discussing this topic quite interesting.