downwinder on 25/1/2023 at 08:12
would be cool to see a side by side comparison of thief dark project vs thief gold as in changes made, not counting new missions
Shoshin on 28/1/2023 at 04:23
"So this is the Lost City.... It's not lost no more!"
That quote makes me laugh, since this is the mission I personally get lost in more than any other, with the possible exception of The Thieves' Guild.
Generally, other than getting lost, I like this mission. I don't love it the way I love some other missions, like Assassins. It ranks probably in the middle for me. However, having just completed it, I find I don't have too much to say about it. It's underground, you're in the Precursor's city that was destroyed by earthquakes and eruptions many many years ago. There are the remains of buildings along old city streets, there's a group of dead Keepers who went down to hide the Fire Talisman, burricks everywhere, fire elementals, a statue of Cthulhu ("Creepy..."), Mages wandering about. So this post will mostly be my stray thoughts.
The fire elementals are, I feel, a nice touch. I kind of wish other missions had water, air and earth elementals in them, just to see what they would be like. They huff like a cross between a steam engine and a buffalo, when they get mad their vocalizations somehow also manage to sound mad, it's very well done. Hitting them with water arrows results in a very satisfying reverse sound as they discorporate, like they are shrinking down to nothingness. It's almost as satisfying as blowing up zombies with Holy water arrows. Kudos to the sound designer who did all their sounds.
I ended this mission with the most damage I've taken so far. It's the combination of narrow walkways, high drops, fire elementals everywhere, burricks, mages.... Speaking of mages, did you know that Air Mages are immune to gas arrows? Yet another thing I've learned for the first time after 24 years of playing this game. Pissed me off, cause gas arrows are rare and expensive, and I wasted one on an air mage.
There's some nice background on the Precursors to be found in the scrolls laying around. Echos of the fall of Rome in there, with the gladiators and Colosseum references, and the decadent ruler. Overall though, not terribly relevant to the story at hand. Maybe more relevant to The Metal Age, especially if you bought the tip about gathering masks for Gervasius.
Overall an enjoyable excursion into the underworld, and adds to the lore around The City that Garrett lives in. People living above the ruins of an ancient civilization that they don't even know is there. How can the Keepers keep this place a secret indeed.
2 Talismans down, 2 to go. Up next is Song of the Caverns, which I remember as being the best of the Thief Gold missions, and overall an excellent mission in general.
vfig on 28/1/2023 at 04:29
Quote Posted by Shoshin
Speaking of mages, did you know that Air Mages are immune to gas arrows? Yet another thing I've learned for the first time after 24 years of playing this game. Pissed me off, cause gas arrows are rare and expensive, and I wasted one on an air mage.
and fire mages are immune to fire arrows!
must suck to have water mages around though, those guys are immune to showers
Hit Deity on 28/1/2023 at 12:34
Quote Posted by vfig
and fire mages are immune to fire arrows!
Can you imagine all his fellow mages if he weren't.. They'd be snickering behind his back, "He's a
fire mage and can't resist fire!!" :laff:
Quote:
must suck to have water mages around though, those guys are immune to showers
Yeah... not all schools of magic are as cool as fire. :cool:
Shoshin on 28/1/2023 at 22:12
I always play non-lethal with the human opponents, so I never noticed that the fire mages were impervious to the fire arrows. Makes sense though. And I would guess the Water mages can't drown? Not that it matters, unless you get one to follow you into the Water Tower. And Earth Mages? Impervious to moss arrows? Lol.
Shoshin on 29/1/2023 at 22:39
The Caverns
I like how this mission starts you on the streets and has you find your way into the caverns rather than starting you there already. It's a small thing, but a nice touch. Once in the caverns, you find your friend Giry, or what's left of him anyway. Along with a note about how he will be leaving in the morning because there are too many spiders. Terrible way to go, wrapped up and eaten by spiders. After making your way through the caverns to the shrine, dispatching a few craymen along the way, of course you discover that someone has gotten there first and taken the Water Talisman. Fortunately, Raoul is there to tell you where to go. In song. For fun, I took the right at the sewer just to see. Hey look, it's the front of the Opera House. You can go in that way if you want, but it's all tiles and very noisy. Left at the sewer it is.
The Basement
Looks like most of the basement is storage for props and backdrops, and the occasional guard's practice dummy. I turned a corner to hide and saw one of them out of the corner of my eye. Scared the crap out of me the first time. Interestingly, the Opera House apparently has a small armory? I shall rob it. I was also mildly amused by the wine cellar with these big storage areas that look like they are for holding caskets, but instead have tiny bottles in them. A few secret passageways, mostly in fireplaces. Plenty of guards patrolling but since the flooring isn't tile, it's easy to sneak up behind them and take them down. Non-lethally.
The Opera House
Once in the opera house proper, there's again plenty of guards and also plenty of loot. The layout makes sense, with the stage in the middle and viewing rooms on the floors above. A backstage area, the ticket counter, and of course Lady Valarus' quarters. Lots and lots of tile, luckily also with carpet in spots. It becomes a pretty standard looting mission, with lots of guards and non-combatants around. Plenty of opportunities for sneaking, and this level definitely rewards patience and punishes being in a hurry. Well lit, lots of guard patrols. I enjoyed the two patrons arguing about Mr. Cribs and his operas about overcoming nature. I can only imagine how bad the operas themselves must be, based on the little snippet being rehearsed in Mr. Cribs' room. I steal the flute, and then knock out the players so I don't have to hear any more of it. "But wait!" There's a secret passage up to Lady Valarus's locked room where the Water Talisman is. Get the talisman, and get out (once you also get the loot, rob the ticket office, and get the flute).
Stray thoughts
Overall a very solid mission. The Opera House feels like a real place, the Caverns section has some light monster action and light comedy ("Up up the rope you go, why do you move so slooow!"), the Water Talisman is locked away with many guards. I think this is a decently hard level, mostly due to the large amount of tiling you have to traverse and the overlapping guard patrols. And the sheer number of guards. This mission is in the top half of my rankings, possibly higher. Once I finish the game I'll rank the missions.
3 down, 1 to go. Time to pretend to be an acolyte!
Kangra on 30/1/2023 at 00:37
Quote Posted by Shoshin
The GroundsI've played this game many times in the last 24 years, and this playthrough was the first time I actually got the Talisman by following the directions on the scroll, about "turn away from the hand with the sword, count seven and find your reward". Every other time I've done that, I'm off by one and get smacked in the face by the decoy. This time, though, I actually saw and counted the one decoy that isn't on the outside edge of the room, but is on a shelf in the middle. Once I counted that one, everything lined up. That's been something that has bothered me for years, that LGS would have made a mistake like that. Turns out they didn't, I just wasn't observant enough.
That makes sense, though it's still kind of confusing. Watching the mages as they go was always the easier option.
I don't know if the Hand Mages per se are in TMA. There are for sure a few people that perform magic, but they seem more like magically trained Mechanists (there are several in Angelwatch). There's a guy at Gervasius's place (in the closet with a Servant) who is either of that kind or might be ex-Hand, as he will attack you with magic. There may have been mention of someone doing business with them as well.
I'm not a huge fun of the Opera House as a mission, but it is one of the most well-designed places in the game. It feels authentically real, outside of the low number of people present.
Shoshin on 5/2/2023 at 02:40
After playing this one again, I've come to the conclusion that I really like it. It's funny, cause it didn't stand out much in my memory, but after playing it it feels very Thief-y, if you know what I mean. Infiltrate a building with forged credentials? Steal a bunch of their stuff out from under their noses? Count me in!
One nice switch up is that, like the one guard from Lord Bafford's, the patrols do not immediately treat you as enemy. Unless, you know, you're spotted going into a room marked with an upside down red hammer, or you draw a weapon, or they notice something missing, or find an unconscious body. I don't think there's any other thing that sets them off, and I was impressed when they noticed I'd stolen something, likely the wine bottles off the dining table downstairs. I can't think of anything else that would have set them off, as I didn't go into any of the marked rooms and hadn't knocked anyone out or had a weapon drawn. Is there any other circumstances that would cause the Hammers to go on alert and set off the alarm? I'll cop to restarting the mission after that, as I didn't want to have to deal with all the Hammers in a state of alert for the rest of the level. Incidentally, on this mission I did get 100% of the loot, almost without trying. Nothing was especially hidden so as long as you went everywhere, you can pretty easily find all the loot.
The temple is another pretty nicely designed space. The crypts beneath it are a bit less organized, making them feel like a leftover from an older building that was maybe torn down and the temple built over the top? Even in the crypts, the Hammers let you wander around, which is nice as it allows me to come up behind them and knock them out. All the switches are in decently easy to find places, though I always struggle with the one in the garden. I keep expecting it to be in the corner behind a tree, rather than in the middle. But again, once you've found it you're good to go. Getting all five switches in the allotted time was difficult for me the first several times I played this mission, but this time it was no problem.
So I flip all five switches and go and stand at the bridge, which is still retracted. Why is it still retracted? Then I notice the Hammer in the tile at my feet, and remember the same Hammer in tile outside the Priest's room, with a hammer inside also in front of another Hammer in tile. Hmm, could that be a clue the game is trying to hit me over the head with? So I get the hammer, then the bridge extends. Every time I forget this part. Every time I have to resist the urge to look at a walkthrough. You'd think I would remember, but apparently not. Anyway, the bridge extends and I go over, flip the switch to open the cage, and go over to the Air Talisman, with the scroll containing the Wallbuilder prayer. I'm all ready to read it, looking at the Talisman. And what happens? I go to use the scroll and instead I try to grab the Talisman. Cause it's highlighted apparently, so the Use key, being context sensitive, has decided I was trying to get the Talisman rather than reading the prayer out loud. Good thing I've knocked all the Hammers out by this point because the bloody alarm goes off. But that's my last task, I've gotten all the loot and the First Hammer, so I am out of there.
That's 4 out of 4. Up next I return to the cathedral to fetch the Eye. I am a little wary to play this mission again. The first time I did, I loved it. Tense, scary, the Cathedral grounds are huge... But it lost a little bit of its charm after multiple playthroughs. So we'll see. I'll be playing it next.
Shoshin on 12/2/2023 at 19:37
And so we go to get the Eye.
The objectives are simple enough, get in, get the Eye, and get out.
So first we use the Talismans to open the door. Once in the foyer, the sounds of the Hammer Haunts and zombies can be heard coming from the double doors. Not ready to go in there yet, so I go to the side, exploring. In other levels I like to leave doors open so I know where I've been. Not possible in this level, as the doors close themselves after a short period of time. There's plenty of tile floors and not a lot of undead killing resources, so even more stealth than normal is required. Finding the ladder up, I go to the second level, and slowly make my way around to the Altar, above which floats the eye. I lean out and grab it, which alerts every undead creature on the first floor to my presence.
As I go back around to go back to the front door, I notice that all the first floor undead creatures (three Haunts, one Priest, and some zombies) have all conveniently gathered in one location looking up at me. The Priest casts his skulls at me, but I have some flashbombs. I use them, killing all the undead below me. Quite convenient for them to all gather like that for me. The first time I played this level, I didn't want anything to do with the undead, the Haunts in particular. So I tried to sneak back out. Once at the front door, of course, the Eye basically tells me "Haha, not that easy man." So I have to go back through the Cathedral, avoiding all the enemies. I learn about the cellar where the power is, so I head down there, get some loot, turn on the power.
From there I leave the Cathedral to the Garden area, where more Haunts and a Priest are on patrol, along with some zombies, and a ghost priest just standing there. Hello Brother Murus. Initially, I didn't approach the ghost, not knowing he was, you know, friendly. Finally though I do, and he starts giving me quests. These quests will eventually lead to me visiting every portion of the map, some multiple times. First though, I have to make a holy symbol and then get it blessed. Murus tells me where I can make one, in the factory, so I head there. Initially it took me some time to figure out that the holy symbol was a hammer, as there are six molds in there. Of course the Hammerites Holy Symbol is a hammer, not sure why it took me so long to figure out. Then I have to get it blessed. Luckily there are some texts laying around that let you know to go to the Lunar Pool in the Observatory to do so, as there are no living Hammer Priests to do it for me. I also have to gather his rosary, a candle, and the Prayer Book. I find all those things, and finally Brother Murus' grave is consecrated. He's quite grateful, but still a bit demanding as now I have to bury his friends as well. Their corpses are back in the Cathedral. My first play through I was tense and a bit irritated when I realized I needed to go back into the cathedral to get the bodies. I did not want to go back in there, with the Haunts still roaming about. But I managed to sneak back in and get Brother Renault. And bury him, and then have to go back in to get Brother Martello. Each trip was nerve wracking, and really added to the tenseness of this level. This time through, I had already killed the Haunts in the Cathedral and had brought the bodies down to the garden area so I wouldn't have to traverse the Cathedral any more. Bury them, and then he tells me I have to kill the Haunts! First time through, I absolutely did not want to do that. The Haunts are the fastest and hardest enemies in the game, and if you alert them and they come at you, you're almost certain to die. Or at least, I am. I'm not good enough with the sword to face them head on. But Constantine's Sword is very valuable, with the backstab taking the Haunts down in one blow. First time through, this took a looooong time for me, as I was so cautious and waited until I had the perfect backstab opportunity for each Haunt. I don't think I knew that flashbombs worked on them at that time. So I kill all the Haunts (much easier 24 years later, and knowing about all the tools available). Brother Murus is grateful, but not grateful enough to let me out. He does give me a key to the Armory though, where I go back into the Cathedral (again!) and get the explosive device. And a fire arrow for good measure I think? Make sure you have at least the one fire arrow at the end, or I think you're out of luck on getting out. Blow the gate, and this level is done. Time for Constantine to pay up, right?
I'm not sure what I expected the first time through. I mean, I knew enough to know that there was no way Garrett was getting his 100,000 and retiring, as the game would have been over with no sequels. So I knew there would be more. But I did not expect the cutscene that followed. The Trickster proves to be real, Viktoria is a wood nymph, Garrett loses his eye, and bad bad things are afoot.
Stray Thoughts
I was worried that I would not enjoy this level again, after playing it so much. And there are definitely frustrating parts to it, particularly having to go back into the Cathedral so many times. It maybe would have been nice for Murus to just tell me up front *all* the things I was going to need, instead of dribbling out the information one piece at a time. On the other hand, where's the fun in that? And it is an effective way to get the player to visit all the areas of the map. But if I were going to critique it (and I am) I would recommend that there be much less backtracking. Maybe design the level so each new Murus quest sends you to a place you haven't been yet? Doing all the revisiting of the Cathedral gets a bit old. I guess I would have placed Renault and Martello in different buildings rather than in the Cathedral. However, the atmosphere of this level is very very well done. It feels haunted, with the doors that close themselves, and the preponderance of undead characters. It is tense, it is scary, there are areas where you are very exposed and must time your movements carefully, with so many enemies on patrols that intersect randomly. This is an excellent level, and the cutscene at the end is the best in the game. And luckily, the Keepers have been watching, and show up just in time to allow you to escape.
Kangra on 13/2/2023 at 22:31
That's one level that really is great the first time, but feels more tiresome when you go through it again. At least on a redo you can kind of prep what you need for Murus if you know what he'll ask of you. I guess it is all the backtracking that makes it annoying.
You wouldn't necessarily be stuck without a fire arrow at the end, since it's possible to exit without the sunburst device. You have to make the jump from the roof of one of the buildings (St. Yora's? The roof is accessible from near the cemetery gate), and land in a mantle on the gate, from which you just hop over. A speed potion makes it much easier to do it, although I believe it has been accomplished without one. This is also the way to complete the level without having to do anything Murus asks, as long as you make sure never to trigger the conversation where he gives you objectives. (I think you can talk to him once and it's still okay, but it's the second time you see him that the fetch quests start).