Shoshin on 29/11/2022 at 00:36
All,
Yesterday I began what I believe will be my last playthrough of Thief Gold (to be followed by The Metal Age and Deadly Shadows). Why last? Well, there is always a last time for things we do, as time passes and life changes and flows by. When I first came here to TTLG, I was 23 years younger, going through a divorce, and had no kids. Now my oldest is going on 17, my youngest is 15, I'm married, and I'm pretty busy. All of that affects my time that I have for pursuits such as gaming. But the big driver is that in April 2021 I was diagnosed with Stage IV lung cancer. Long, unhappy story. Short version is that it's not smoking related and is a genetic mutation. The good news is that treatments have advanced tremendously in the last 20 years, with targeted therapies emerging that has meant I only have to take a daily pill, and that I am currently free of detectable cancer. The bad news is that these new treatments inevitably fail, and can fail at any time. But that is the background to why I'm posting this thread, and not what I want this thread to be about.
This thread is about Thief. The series is my all time favorite video game series, and though I've had a good time playing many other games, none of them pulled me in like Thief did. So I'm going to run through all of the games again, one more time. Like reading a favorite novel, or rewatching a favorite movie. And then I'll talk about each mission.
I don't have any particular rules for the playthrough, though I would like to get 100% of the loot without looking at a walkthrough. I've already played Lord Bafford's Manor, and I did get 100% of the loot, but I had to look up the location of a stack of coins for 12 gold in order to complete it.
So my next post will be about Lord Bafford's Manor.
Hit Deity on 29/11/2022 at 01:53
I'll read along for the ride. I've been playing since '98, '99.. when did the first game come out?
I don't think I've ever gotten 100‰ loot in any mission.. either original ones, or FMs.. but I sure have had some fun.
Sorry to hear about your medical issue(s). I don't know what to say, except "Keep fighting".
Shoshin on 29/11/2022 at 02:24
I've been a gamer my whole life. In the late 70s/early 80s we had an Intellivision game console, and I had an Apple II GS (which stood for Graphics and Sound). I messed around early with programming, and I've been doing it ever since. I first learned to read source code so I could figure out the solution to a text based adventure game (in a locked room with only a piano. Take a key from the piano, unlock the door. Fuck that game). I liked the arcade games at the time, but I really liked the text based games for the feeling of playing a story. So when I encountered The Bard's Tale on my Apple II GS I was hooked. It had a story, it had some depth, and it had a first person perspective as you moved through the town and the dungeons. At that moment I fell in love with the first person perspective. Doom was amazing, Quake was too. Visceral, frightening, thrilling... but light on the story elements. Half-Life was awesome, and had more of a story, but was also on rails and the thing that bothered me most was the way the enemies would do nothing until you saw them. They would just stand there behind you, then you'd turn around, and then they would engage. I understand the design choice but it was a glaring reminder that I was playing a game, and I preferred to be immersed as much as possible. I played Unreal in there somewhere too, though I remember almost nothing about it.
That was the context I was coming from when I picked up Thief Gold sometime in 1999.
The cutscenes were perfect. Sketches and a voice over, text setting up the backdrop of the world, maps that aren't perfect replicas of the space you'll be moving through. Evocative, but leaving plenty up to your ability to explore. Set the scene, let the player play. "Steal another fat nobleman's priceless trinket and leave quietly."
I wasn't sure what I was getting into, I just knew I was tired of the run and gun games I'd been playing and was ready for something different.
So you start in the corner of the street near the front entrance of Lord Bafford's Manor. As you approach, the guards start discussing the bear pits and the fights therein. It's a nice touch, the guards acknowledging each other's presence and chatting away about nothing. As a programmer, I know there is a trigger there so the conversation doesn't start until I'm there to hear it, but given the games I'd been playing, the fact that there was a conversation at all was pretty cool. The stage is being set for a world that feels lived in. It's not there just for me, the guards have lives and concerns outside the game. It's all artifice of course, but well done artifice. As I move past the gate, I get Garrett's first voiceover in game. Stephen Russell of course did an excellent job with Garrett. World weary, cynical, to the point. The voiceover does well at conveying information, guiding the player, and getting you used to the notion that you'll hear his thoughts from here on out.
Move past the front gate. Here comes a servant down the alleyway, heading to Bafford's. The first time I saw him, I panicked and tried to hide, only to have him ignore me. Here was a new concept, a neutral NPC. Very different from the kill everything that moves FPS's I'd been playing at the time. I would learn that servants can raise the alarm, so they couldn't just be ignored, but they wouldn't cause immediate combat or failure. As I continue along the street, I find the cache of arrows. OK, so I'll be able to find supplies along the way as well. Good. I wander around, and eventually accidentally highlight a sewer cover and open it. Down I go, into the sewer. I didn't really intend to come out behind the guard at the well, but that's where I wound up. The first several times I missed the loot on the floor in the room with the lever for opening the metal gate.
I approach the guard very carefully, only for him to be very drunk. A little humor, and some realism as well. Guard duty is boring, some of them are going to drink. "What's with the crazy getup?" Had to chuckle at that as I lifted the key from him. Then into the well house and down the well to the water supply. Blue, instead of green, if I remember correctly. Clean, as opposed to sewage?
Through the water, find the passage with spiders and a chest. So there are non-human characters here as well. The spiders seem bigger than normal, the size of cats. No compunction about killing them at all.
A ha, a broken wall and a back way in. Lord Bafford really should repair that some day. Overhear another guard conversation, about keeping out intruders. As an intruder, I am amused at the irony, no doubt as intended. My first attempt at blackjacking the guard goes poorly I think. But eventually I get it. It's around this time that I realize the AI has multiple states, and that an unaware AI can be knocked out, and a searching AI can be knocked out from behind, but that a fully alerted AI has to be run from so that he stops looking for me, or flashbombed and then knocked out. Somewhere along the way, I learn that the AI talk to themselves, mostly so they can broadcast clues about their alerted state to the player. "Musta been rats." I'm sure in this quasi-medieval city, there were tons of rats. A modern remake would need to have them running around as ambient background animals, but the tech limitations of the time I'm sure precluded that. I make my way up from the storage areas and kitchen, stealing what I can find, knocking out servants and guards as I come across them, making mistakes and restarting the level as I learn these new stealth mechanics. I like the occasional texts I come across, laying out that Bafford is something of a jerk to his servants and guards. Now I don't feel so bad about stealing his shit!
The thing I start to notice about the manor is how interconnected everything is. Rarely is there only one way to get to a place or objective. Multiple pathways leading to a place. This helps the game as it makes it easier to go from place to place avoid guards, and in reality no one would build a castle with no choke points, but from a player's perspective it's awesome and gives a real maze type feel so you have to pay attention. You are not on rails, there are multiple different ways to go, and it is easy to get lost. Compare that to Half-life where there is always one way forward. And, there are no convenient man-sized air ducts anywhere to be found. I hate that about games that try to give you a stealth option. No way to sneak past this guard! Oh wait, here's a convenient 4 foot high air duct that leads straight to where you want to go!
Being able to control the light levels is another revelation. Garrett becomes invisible in the dark, guards walk right past him, but there are torches everywhere, lighting things up. The water arrows are a nice touch. Use these (in limited supply) to put out a torch. Voila! Instant darkness. Eventually I will realize that there are arrows that fit into the classic Greek elements of earth, air, fire & water. For now, I don't know that yet. I just think they are cool and very very useful. Every load out sees me buying every available water arrow.
I sneak through the manor, stealing what I find, until I find the Throne Room. How pretentious! I get the scepter, and then I have to find the exit. My first time through I am seriously lost, so even though I have what I came for, I'm not done. I must also escape.
After I get out, I am very intrigued by this game. It is very different from what I'd been playing, and the first mission is a nice introduction to the world, so I am ready to play more. It still may not be my type of game, but I've played for 60-90 minutes and I like the slow, deliberate pace, the exploration, the hint of a larger world. More complex AI that seems to have a bit of a life outside guarding, all very nice.
Next mission is Break from Cragscleft, so I will update this thread when I play through it again.
Shoshin on 29/11/2022 at 02:44
Quote Posted by Hit Deity
I'll read along for the ride. I've been playing since '98, '99.. when did the first game come out?
I don't think I've ever gotten 100‰ loot in any mission.. either original ones, or FMs.. but I sure have had some fun.
Sorry to hear about your medical issue(s). I don't know what to say, except "Keep fighting".
Thanks, there isn't much else to say. Luckily the treatment has been relatively easy compared to traditional chemo, so the fight, as it were, is pretty easy.
I think The Dark Project came out in 1998, with Thief Gold coming out in 1999? 1999 was when I got it.
Tomi on 29/11/2022 at 08:26
Been years since I last played the classic Thief games, so I'm looking forward to your playthrough posts. :)
Quote:
Here was a new concept, a neutral NPC. Very different from the kill everything that moves FPS's I'd been playing at the time.
Yeah, I remember playing Thief with a friend of mine back in the day. He did try to be stealthy but was pretty terrible at it, so he ended up killing pretty much all the guards. Or probably died while trying to do so. No wonder he thought that the game "sucked" and never wanted to play it again. And actually, I think that's fair enough criticism in a way - even though you're not supposed to play Thief in that way, the game gives you all the weapons and gadgets to make it possible, and that part of the gameplay
does suck indeed.
Another thing that sucks is your health issues. I certainly hope that all these modern treatments will continue to work. :thumb: Don't know if you still remember me, but you sent me the CD by your band all these years ago. I did my best to promote it to my friends, which most likely resulted in 0 extra sales, haha. For some reason I still remember this detail about you being sorry for not being able to send the CD to me earlier, because you had been too busy with your newborn daughter, so yeah, that really was quite a long time ago. I actually listened to the album again a few months ago! Some of the songs sound a bit too "early 2000s" these days, although it gives me sort of a nostalgic feeling now, but
'End of a String' particularly is still a great pop song. I sometimes find myself humming along its chorus while I do stuff.
But we're going off-topic here I guess. Take care and keep taffing!
zajazd on 29/11/2022 at 10:38
When you get to Thieves' Guild, you know what to do Ctrl+Alt+Shift+End
Kubrick on 29/11/2022 at 12:57
I love this kind of posts and the fact that many on this forum are 40+ gamers is one of the reasons I started engaging in the first place. As someone born in '94 and having popped the cherry of gaming very early in life, I don't have the memories of "a game can do that?!" that always appears when people talk about while remembering Thief. Plus, because of the game's idisioncracies, slower and more thoughtful gamers are more likely to be brought in, which are also the ones more likely to cherish the memory and explore and re-explore it as you are doing now (and then keep exploring it in a discussion or a written-down of those experiences).
I know this thread is about Thief and not about death (and life), but it's a subtext impossible to escape from. I don't think it's a bad thing. It gives the read an extra layer that is very pretty. I have a somewhat eclectic and multifaceted life. People from one space in my life are always surprised that other, very different sides coexist as well. And through them, a very personal and mostly not-shared aspect is gaming, a very solitary kind of single-player gaming, where older games like Thief take the crown over most modern options. And I often wonder, between many other things about the future, what games will I still be playing when I get older. What games will stand against time, both because they age well as a game and because I simply just haven't extracted all I could from them yet, regardless of the years.
I thoroughly enjoyed the post and will be reading the rest. Say, have you played Fan Missions at all? Any recent ones? I understand you have a busy life and it's more like a new encounter with an old friend, to see like in a mirror how much you've both changed and how much you haven't, but there are some very interesting new things out there made by fans. Previously this year I replayed Thief 1 and did not enjoy it (haha) but I knew that was going to happen. My first proper playthrough was kinda late in my gaming history: it was in 2017. And since then I've stayed because of fan missions.
Hit Deity on 29/11/2022 at 14:21
I was 28 when the first game came out, and I played the demo of the game until I wore it out. It was the first time in a long time that I could remember wanting to play something so badly that I stayed up well past midnight, even on work nights, just to find out what happened next.
It wasn't long before my oldest son started playing the game(s), then the other two started, and we've been a household of Thief fans ever since.
I remember the first time I ever got close enough for one of the patrolling guards in the streets before entering Bafford's manor to see me, and I had dodged the guards a thousand times up to that point... and he says, "How's it going?" real casual like, and I thought, "How many times have I snuck by this guy and spent all that time avoiding him?!?!" I also remember the next time I came across a guard somewhere and tried to just walk nonchalantly by him and got attacked. The game was excellent at keeping me on my toes. It just never gets old.
I'm 52 now, and I enjoy a lot of different types of games... but Thief will always remain high on my list of all-time favorites.
Shoshin on 29/11/2022 at 15:47
Quote Posted by Tomi
Been years since I last played the classic Thief games, so I'm looking forward to your playthrough posts. :)
Yeah, I remember playing Thief with a friend of mine back in the day. He did try to be stealthy but was pretty terrible at it, so he ended up killing pretty much all the guards. Or probably died while trying to do so. No wonder he thought that the game "sucked" and never wanted to play it again. And actually, I think that's fair enough criticism in a way - even though you're not supposed to play Thief in that way, the game gives you all the weapons and gadgets to make it possible, and that part of the gameplay
does suck indeed.
Another thing that sucks is your health issues. I certainly hope that all these modern treatments will continue to work. :thumb: Don't know if you still remember me, but you sent me the CD by your band all these years ago. I did my best to promote it to my friends, which most likely resulted in 0 extra sales, haha. For some reason I still remember this detail about you being sorry for not being able to send the CD to me earlier, because you had been too busy with your newborn daughter, so yeah, that really was quite a long time ago. I actually listened to the album again a few months ago! Some of the songs sound a bit too "early 2000s" these days, although it gives me sort of a nostalgic feeling now, but
'End of a String' particularly is still a great pop song. I sometimes find myself humming along its chorus while I do stuff.
But we're going off-topic here I guess. Take care and keep taffing!
Hey Tomi - yeah "End of a String" was a real high point on that record. That band broke up shortly after my daughter was born. Too many responsibilities, not enough time. But I thoroughly enjoyed making that record.
My son tries to play Thief that way too, killing everything, moving through too quickly, not being deliberative, so it ends up not being fun for him. I remember Joel Hodgson once said about Mystery Science Theater 300 "Not everyone will get it, but the right people will get it". Thief is like that a little bit. Not for everyone, but for those of us that do get it, it's the best. Like MST3K.