Thief 4 is a prime example of all (or most) of the reasons why I hate modern games - by FatSpy
Renzatic on 12/10/2013 at 08:58
Quote Posted by KoHaN69
Although the graphics need to be improved, the style needs to be simple. Complex graphics cause cludder. In Dx1 you see the item on the table, you pick it up because its the only thing there, or the weapon on ground/etc. High-lighting is a shitty fix for unnecessary problem of background props crowding the scene. This is a huge problem with many modern games. Artist want everything to look pretty and dress up the environments disregarding their usability for gameplay purposes.
There's a reason we use google maps in the yellow and white easy to see mode, instead of satellite mode, f****** usability.
This doesn't make any sense. You don't want the game to be more gamey, but you think the things that make the environments looked lived rather than staged props existing solely for the purpose of gameplay is distracting and completely unnecessary?
Dishes on a dining room table after dinner? Chairs scooted away haphazardly? A scene that gives you the impression that the room was vacated quickly and suddenly? A COMPLETE WASTE OF RESOURCES! There should only be two candlesticks you can loot!
Vivian on 12/10/2013 at 09:56
NAME A FOURTH ANYTHING THAT DOESNT SUCK
TriangleTooth on 12/10/2013 at 11:08
Quote Posted by Renzatic
This doesn't make any sense. You don't want the game to be more gamey, but you think the things that make the environments looked lived rather than staged props existing solely for the purpose of gameplay is distracting and completely unnecessary?
Dishes on a dining room table after dinner? Chairs scooted away haphazardly? A scene that gives you the impression that the room was vacated quickly and suddenly? A COMPLETE WASTE OF RESOURCES! There should only be two candlesticks you can loot!
Agreed, hell, Thief had useless items (or near-useless, they could be tossed around) littering the area and furniture. It makes the environment look like a real place rather than a room specifically designed for gameplay.
Hell, this is the problem with modern non-linear games - they DON'T think about the layout in terms of normal life enough, they create them as obstacle courses with certain paths rather than places designed with their in-universe function in mind.
Dia on 12/10/2013 at 11:55
Quote Posted by Vivian
NAME A FOURTH ANYTHING THAT DOESNT SUCK
I love you.
I agree with Triangle. Even if you feel like you're enjoying the freedom of this huge world, once you embark on a designated 'obstacle course' path it becomes not only linear, but grinding as well.
King No One on 12/10/2013 at 12:26
Quote Posted by Vivian
NAME A FOURTH ANYTHING THAT DOESNT SUCK
Star Wars Episode IV :cheeky: ...sorry
@Fatspy welcome to the forums! You've come to right place to grumble about the direction AAA games are taking the industry; wasn't too long ago I made a similar post about modern development/publishing schemes and the effect they've had on my experience.
DLC wasn't a bad idea back when it was new: Development team had brought a title to launch but had some things they still wanted to try out. AFTER they were done with the main game and the FULL experience that provided THEN they got to work on the DLC.
Now they're cutting or locking off things from the finished game simply to punish players for not pre-ordering, or weakening the final game by working on DLC during the main development period. It's counter-intuitive: the financial success of a game is measured on its sales performance in the first week of release but most gamers will wait for a complete edition to be released so as to avoid being nickeled and dimed. That's what I did for Arkham:City and even then I didn't use most of the DLC (f**k skins and challenge maps btw).
Of course buyers can cherry pick; I'm chomping at the bit for Burial At Sea but I'm not interested in the rest of Bioshock Infinites' DLC but the very fact that I have to keep an eye out feels insulting (F**K skins again btw)
As for Thief all my hopes for the game are tied up in DLC now. I don't want any rinky dink skins or weapon packs, I want missions! These missions could fix many of the fundamental problems fans have with the new games setting: Hammer or Pagan centric missions will regain a lot of goodwill (so long as they don't take too many cues from their DS incarnations). Of course that's the same optimism that sent the Mass Effect Community into a cycle of rage and misery so I'll try to lower my expectations. You happy games industry?! That's what your current ethos forces gamers to do!
I accept that as a modern game Thief will have modern trappings (F**K Achievements, prompts and casualization btw) but I hope the Devs assurances that they can mostly be disabled are genuine. True Stealth games these days are as rare as true Horror games (outside of the Indie scene of course) so I'm going to pick up Thief and try to have sneaky fun while actively ignoring every ability that ruins my immersion (Stealthing around the AAA elements if you will). It's a sad situation that when the technology is available to make truly great games players that want a challenge have to forsake gameplay elements that tilt the odds too far in their favour (90% of the abilities in Dishonored for example).
If there are achievements for completing the game without using focus or swoop it looks like I'll be getting them.
Nuth on 12/10/2013 at 14:46
Quote Posted by Vivian
NAME A FOURTH ANYTHING THAT DOESNT SUCK
Tom Baker
FatSpy on 12/10/2013 at 16:11
Quote Posted by Vivian
NAME A FOURTH ANYTHING THAT DOESNT SUCK
Resident Evil.
It might have killed the entire series completely and had a mediocre store, but it was a pretty good game in its own regard. The atmosphere, music, and action pretty epic.
Unfortunently 5 couldn't follow up and it pretty much did everything wrong.
Quote Posted by King No One
Star Wars Episode IV :cheeky: ...sorry
@Fatspy welcome to the forums! You've come to right place to grumble about the direction AAA games are taking the industry; wasn't too long ago I made a similar post about modern development/publishing schemes and the effect they've had on my experience.
DLC wasn't a bad idea back when it was new: Development team had brought a title to launch but had some things they still wanted to try out. AFTER they were done with the main game and the FULL experience that provided THEN they got to work on the DLC.
Now they're cutting or locking off things from the finished game simply to punish players for not pre-ordering, or weakening the final game by working on DLC during the main development period. It's counter-intuitive: the financial success of a game is measured on its sales performance in the first week of release but most gamers will wait for a complete edition to be released so as to avoid being nickeled and dimed. That's what I did for Arkham:City and even then I didn't use most of the DLC (f**k skins and challenge maps btw).
Of course buyers can cherry pick; I'm chomping at the bit for Burial At Sea but I'm not interested in the rest of Bioshock Infinites' DLC but the very fact that I have to keep an eye out feels insulting (F**K skins again btw)
As for Thief all my hopes for the game are tied up in DLC now. I don't want any rinky dink skins or weapon packs, I want missions! These missions could fix many of the fundamental problems fans have with the new games setting: Hammer or Pagan centric missions will regain a lot of goodwill (so long as they don't take too many cues from their DS incarnations). Of course that's the same optimism that sent the Mass Effect Community into a cycle of rage and misery so I'll try to lower my expectations. You happy games industry?! That's what your current ethos forces gamers to do!
I accept that as a modern game Thief will have modern trappings (F**K Achievements, prompts and casualization btw) but I hope the Devs assurances that they can mostly be disabled are genuine. True Stealth games these days are as rare as true Horror games (outside of the Indie scene of course) so I'm going to pick up Thief and try to have sneaky fun while actively ignoring every ability that ruins my immersion (Stealthing around the AAA elements if you will). It's a sad situation that when the technology is available to make truly great games players that want a challenge have to forsake gameplay elements that tilt the odds too far in their favour (90% of the abilities in Dishonored for example).
If there are achievements for completing the game without using focus or swoop it looks like I'll be getting them.
DLC is something I find as the cancer to the game industry. You see with expansion packs it wasn't as easy to distribute, but now it's so easy and convinient to make DLC that people use it, as you said, to skimp out on the actual game.
The use of DLC is pretty disgusting right now, for example I hear in metro the last light you needed to preorder the game just to access hard mode (which was a major mode in the game considering it was apocalyptic survival). Then I hear one of the newer RE games needed dlc to access multiplayer THAT WAS ALREADY ON THE DISC. Ontop of that preorder dlc is a way that gamestop encourages developers to manipulate their fanbase in a way that makes them buy at gamestop, it started with preorder skins but then in battlefield 3 they had attachemetns you could only access if you preordered from gamestop.
Like DLC COULD have been amazing, but then devs realized "Oh hey, I can just slowly push my way to nickle and dime people with DLC and nobody will notice" and they're partially right.
I think Im still on the fence of preordering the new thief, like I said earlier RE4 was a game that was completely different but I enjoyed. However, its a real gamble and its not just the money it's the feeling you're rewarding a mediocre product by being tricked by such obvious panning to the fans.
DLC could help or ruin the new thief if they add more. For example, they can decide their casual game market is bringing them more revenue so they add more OP items and lackluster missions. Or they figure out that it's not a success and try to add dlc that makes it more challanging, but most likely they'll give up and not add anything if that's the case.
Gabucino on 12/10/2013 at 16:35
Quote Posted by FatSpy
This might be a pretty long rantYeah, and you are a hundred percent correct, so I'll spare you your time and redirect you away from TTLG. There are people on this board who:
- like Gone Home
- like Last of Us
- are actually waiting to see how Thief 4 turns out
- payed/will pay money for these "games"
Hard to believe I know, but true.
386DX on 12/10/2013 at 17:54
I agree with your rant as well. Thief was a difficult game with a learning curve that had finite game mechanics involving sound and shadows. Couple that with atmosphere and story and you have a winner in my book.
Unfortunately when information about the game started to come out I realized that new Thief was not being made for people like me who require depth and a difficult yet satisfying learning curve. Phrases like "pick up and play" and "accessible for everyone" are the go to descriptions for developers these days signaling their intent to appeal to everyone under the sun. I have gone from not buying the game because of all those features made for the casual market to looking at this game as a separate entity from Thief and just buying it because it does have features I like and it appears to have atmosphere.
That view does not hold out for long because I can vividly imagine a DIRECT SEQUEL with Garrett at the helm voiced by Stephen Russell that looks as sleek as the game we are being shown with more advanced gameplay that fleshes out the AI, sound,movement and shadow system while keeping all the lore intact. That and the continued disdain for the originals the developers show with their snide comments tells me new Thief is going to be a no.
Instead I feel it's more productive in this gaming environment to support those games that go against the norm. The Dark Mod is amazing and I will continue to view that as the next level of Thief. The developers of Cyberpunk 2077 have said that the game will not be made for casual players. That statement right there got my full attention and since I enjoy that genre I will definitely be keeping an eye on it. Star Citizen is also another game that I support because of the attempt to resurrect a space sim genre that has been mostly dead for a number of years and it's complexity is right up my alley.
LoucMachine on 12/10/2013 at 23:30
Funny cuz on Eidos forums, some people are actually whinning that TDM is not enough "pick up and play" and "accessible for everyone". One even say ''You see, you even have to read manual to look at settings...That's my point'' because one of the dev from the mod refered him to the wiki to understand options better... Hell if you dont want to take time to understand basic controls why do you even play games in the first place ?!?! :mad:
