Thief (4) Features. What we know is in, what we know is out. - by SubJeff
Jhorra on 24/7/2013 at 11:07
Quote Posted by Chade
I don't think they're missing, Jhorra. Source?
Mind you, the only piece of equipment I'd be sad to see go on that list is the flashbomb. Gas items are valuable for newbies as well.
I had a feeling that gas arrows were confirmed, with some sentence saying "both fire and gas arrows now travel in arcs" in some preview somewhere. Not 100% sure though.
ok cool, i hadn't seen them listed in the OP and they weren't' in the E3 demo...
I think limited gas arrows were useful sometimes and still required strategy.
Anyway, I probably won't buy this game anyway after all the awful things they have done to it...
Chade on 24/7/2013 at 21:42
Quote Posted by Starker
I bet you wouldn't have missed jumping in the first half hour of Bafford's manor, if they had put a contextual jump in that wellhouse. The first you'd have even noticed it was missing would probably have been when you wanted to jump from carpet to carpet. Yet I would say that freeform jumping is very much a core part of Thief.
You're probably right about Baffords. And indeed, iirc (it was a long time ago), the first time I wanted to jump in that mission was from carpet to carpet near Bafford's throne room. (I proceeded to miss the carpet. Definitely remember that.)
On the other hand, Baffords didn't have much in the way of climbing opportunities at all, at least for "normal" play. Actually, let me be a bit broader then that. Apart from the entrance underneath the manor, Baffords didn't have much in the way of "unusual movement" at all (for lack of better words, where by "unusual movement", I mean movement that breaks expectations of the way people are meant to move around the level, from the pov of the game's fiction, not necessarily from the pov of the designers, although that would be even better).
That's the main point of jumping in a thief game. To enable you to move around the level in ways that people are not supposed to. T1/2 also gave you mantling, rope arrows, and swimming.
The main difference between Baffords and the Thief 4 E3 demo is that we know the E3 demo had plenty of opportunity for "unusual movement". Indeed, even otherwise critical reviews have praised that aspect of the demo: see RPS. Just looking at the video, you can see that there are lots of places where you might want to jump, very much unlike Baffords. Whatever abilities they give you to move around in ways people are not supposed to, they must be at the very least decent enough to substitute for half an hour of moving around a "jump-rich" environment.
Which doesn't give me much comfort when it comes to the ability to push the boundaries of the game as per various types of hard-core play in previous thief games. But it does make me think it might not impact "normal" play as badly as you would otherwise think.
Starker on 24/7/2013 at 22:50
Quote Posted by Chade
The main difference between Baffords and the Thief 4 E3 demo is that we know the E3 demo had plenty of opportunity for "unusual movement". Indeed, even otherwise critical reviews have praised that aspect of the demo: see RPS. Just looking at the video, you can see that there are lots of places where you might want to jump, very much unlike Baffords. Whatever abilities they give you to move around in ways people are not supposed to, they must be at the very least decent enough to substitute for half an hour of moving around a "jump-rich" environment.
Quote Posted by Starker
When you are playing a demo for a limited time, you probably want to see the content and are unlikely to dick around much with jumping. Also, I would think you are not very inclined to jump around guards, on account of it making noise.
Quote Posted by Chade
But it does make me think it might not impact "normal" play as badly as you would otherwise think.
Do I need to bring out that X-Files poster again?
Chade on 24/7/2013 at 23:02
Beats me, I don't have a clue what you're implying.
Interleaved quotes usually suggest that I'm not responding to the part of your post you quoted, which doesn't seem to fit here.
Starker on 24/7/2013 at 23:09
Um... in the first part of the post, I've copypasted my own quote as an answer because I've already answered the question that you are asking (why didn't people notice the lack of jumping?). I was just too lazy to type something like it again.
In the second part I'm referring to the "I want to believe" poster, implying wishful thinking.
Goldmoon Dawn on 24/7/2013 at 23:18
Quote Posted by Chade
At the same time, a lot of the complaints about the jumping, from myself as well, are based around the idea that this is the worse thing we've heard because jumping is so central to thief's core gameplay. If it's such a central part of the core gameplay, why are people unlikely to even notice it given half an hour of play?
And therein lies the core principle that both jtr7 and I have agreed on since the days of Deadly.
Because they have designed a train track game, the Mission design itself will be done within the confining context of guided game play. The first two Thiefs had sprawling level design and proper atmosphere to keep it moving. Because you had these overdone environments to explore, you might as well build the movement controls to match. Oh, and they did!
With the current model of Thief 4, you *will* notice at some point that if you think of something clever, you will prolly be met with the fact that the designers put that there just for you, so that they could guide you to it contextually. Tedious after a short while, I think.
No more running and jumping off a crate for the airborne blackjack, a daring jump, and down the rope that should never have been there. :(
It would be kinda neat to hear what the team thinks about the concerns both forums share on this topic.
Chade on 24/7/2013 at 23:28
Quote Posted by Starker
Um... in the first part of the post, I've copypasted my own quote as an answer because I've already answered the question that you are asking (why didn't people notice the lack of jumping?). I was just too lazy to type something like it again.
In the second part I'm referring to the "I want to believe" poster, implying wishful thinking.
Heh. In that case, I wish I knew whether you needed the X-Files poster or not ... *
sigh*
As for your paragraph answering mine ... well, I considered my paragraph to be an answer to yours. So where does that get us? :p
You have journalists doing the sorts of things that would require jumping in early games, and not complaining about it. You can't just say that they wouldn't have jumped in the demo: they are directly talking about taking analogous actions while playing the demo.
And yeah, I'm sure that if they tried to "dick around" the story may be different. But that's kinda the point. If you have to muck around to see something, it's not core gameplay is it? You didn't have to muck around to see the use of jumping in earlier games. Depending on level, of course. Bonehoard, part of Assassins, The Sword, etc ... you play those games in the normal way, just getting through the level, you're going to be jumping. Likewise with the thief 4 E3 demo, from all reports you're using analogous actions just getting through the level. No mucking around required.
EDIT:
Goldmoon Dawn: yes, it's probably true that the more hardcore you try to play the more this will rankle. I imagine it's something you notice more on the second playthrough.
Goldmoon Dawn on 24/7/2013 at 23:39
Quote Posted by Chade
And yeah, I'm sure that if they tried to "dick around" the story may be different. But that's kinda the point. If you have to muck around to see something, it's not core gameplay is it? You didn't have to muck around to see the use of jumping in earlier games. Depending on level, of course. Bonehoard, part of Assassins, The Sword, etc ... you play those games in the normal way, just getting through the level, you're going to be jumping.
I recall being in The Lost City, and there are so many opportunities to jump from high place to high place, as such avoiding a possibly dangerous route below. From top to bottom the game is full of masterful level design to compensate for the majestic 1st person physics simulation model.
The new game wont be a hide in the shadows game anymore and all that encompasses. Now, it will be a swoop from shadow to shadow, with obvious places for "rope arrows" game. Tedious when compared.
ZylonBane on 24/7/2013 at 23:40
I would like to know what problem they think they're solving by making jump a contextual action. Smells like some nitwit on the dev team is a little too eager to prove himself.
