Thief (4) Features. What we know is in, what we know is out. - by SubJeff
Vivian on 23/7/2013 at 17:19
Quote Posted by robthom
Is this potential stinker really doing that to such hardcore long term fans!
Welllll... yes and no. It doesn't stop the older games existing and being awesome. But it would be really, really nice to have a (good) new Thief game to play. Personally, all the stuff about not having the old factions in doesn't bother me. I'd like to see some new stuff. As long as it's not shitty. But the list of actual problems with this game seems to just get longer every day. Rather than a playground full of meshed systems it seems suspiciously like the levels are an arrangement of predetermined events. Jump here, place rope arrow here, etc. Basically it doesn't look like an immersive sim.
Chade on 23/7/2013 at 23:38
So I've been avoiding saying this for a few days, because it felt like my continual positivity was starting to become a caricature. But, well ... this is what I've been thinking, so if that makes me a caricature, so be it!
A little while ago I defended Jerion's by noting that no-one else had picked up on the jumping as being a problem, and it got me thinking about that.
Obviously, the contextual jumping is my biggest problem with thief 4, taking me from guardedly positive to just on the fence. And yet ... if contextual jumping is such a huge glaring issue, where are the people who have actually played the game complaining about it?
Out of the current sample of people who have actually played the game, we have:
- The EM players, who state they don't like it, but it doesn't effect the experience too badly.
- The journalists, who seemingly didn't notice it at all, or if they did notice it, didn't feel it was a big enough problem to mention, despite criticizing other elements*.
It seems absurd to me that you could restrict something so fundamental as jumping and it wouldn't be a huge problem. Surely it's one of the first things that smacks you in the head when you play the game? And yet ... where are the people playing it and complaining?
* Hell, one article even criticized restricted movement for several whole paragraphs ... about rope arrows! Not a single word about jumping.
Vivian on 24/7/2013 at 00:27
I don't know. But 'maybe it's not as bad as it sounds' gets to be a pretty boring tune to hum to yourself, eventually. My expect-o-meter is now pretty firmly wedged in 'needs to impress me' territory.
Chade on 24/7/2013 at 00:43
Well, I'm probably not saying that about as many things as other people are ... but yeah, part of my post was "maybe it's not as bad as it sounds", and part of it was a genuine question about what's going on here.
Seriously ... why weren't journalists complaining about it?
- Did I just miss the complaints?
- Was EM just lucky? Do it again and people would likely notice?
- Did they not play enough? And if half an hour isn't enough to notice a fundamental movement operation, why not?
- Is it not actually all that important, and if not, why not?
- Is it because climbing is no longer conceptually done through the jump command*, and you tend to climb more then you jump, and restricted climbing doesn't seem so weird?
- Are jumping options really so thoroughly provided that no journalist ever wanted to jump in a place where they couldn't?
* No more then jumping is done by the climbing command anyway. Whereas previously jumping was always the primary action, and then if you jumped into the right context you would just happen to mantle instead.
Jhorra on 24/7/2013 at 03:05
what's in - dumbed down gameplay
what's out - the integrity of the original game. Eveything that made it NOT a console game....
I won't bore you going into details.. we all know what's happened; they tried to turn an indie game into a mainstream game... but it won't work..
also no-one's mentioned the missing equipment..
flashbombs
gas arrows
gas mines
mines
flares
are they all eliminated from the game as well along with Stephen's voice and Eric's music and Benny...?
Azaran on 24/7/2013 at 03:14
Quote Posted by Jhorra
also no-one's mentioned the missing equipment..
flashbombs
gas arrows
gas mines
mines
flares
I remember seeing a screenshot with a flashbomb, so that's there, it's essential. To be honest I wouldn't miss gas arrows and mines; they make the game too easy, I never liked them much except if I was really in trouble.
Chade on 24/7/2013 at 03:29
I don't think they're missing, Jhorra. Source?
Mind you, the only piece of equipment I'd be sad to see go on that list is the flashbomb. Gas items are valuable for newbies as well.
I had a feeling that gas arrows were confirmed, with some sentence saying "both fire and gas arrows now travel in arcs" in some preview somewhere. Not 100% sure though.
Goldmoon Dawn on 24/7/2013 at 04:22
The demo that people played at E3 was carefully crafted. It wouldnt be that hard to disguise things in a crafted demo with limited game time exposure. Imagine the E3 demo as the Titanic when it hits that iceberg. At first, ice crashes on the deck, and people below only feel something shift. As time goes on, and you are Missions into the game, it *will* hit home. Any serious *past* Thief player will have to decide whether to try and keep a straight face and actually stay aboard the railroad of doom, or walk away. Honestly, without the free form exploration, the game already just sounds tedious. As I had mentioned somewhere, I will be one of those who will be doing everything in his power to break the game in as many ways as possible. If they manage to make their train track that airtight, that it cannot be broken, well then that will be a spectacle all of its own.
Chade on 24/7/2013 at 04:55
By all accounts the E3 demo had a decent amount of climbing in it. I'm sure the E3 demo was crafted to emphasize movement options the game actually provides ... but, well ... I'm sure the whole game will be designed that way.
I'm also very ready to agree that as you play longer, you notice more of these missing options. It's not surprising that we heard about this from the guys who played for 60 minutes rather then 30 minutes.
At the same time, a lot of the complaints about the jumping, from myself as well, are based around the idea that this is the worse thing we've heard because jumping is so central to thief's core gameplay. If it's such a central part of the core gameplay, why are people unlikely to even notice it given half an hour of play? Shouldn't you be tripping over core gameplay elements a little more regularly then that?
You deal with shadows and sound and AI practically every second, pick up loot every minute or two, are constantly navigating through the level, etc. Multiple journalists noticed problems with the shadows, with AI, among other things. Hell, I wouldn't have called rope arrows as central a gameplay element as jumping, and journalists had no problems noticing those restrictions in half an hour of play.
And yes, it certainly seems unlikely we'll be getting a "guide to the strange and unusual" for thief 4 ... perhaps we could have "GD's guide to the used-to-be-normal and used-to-be-usual" instead. :p
Starker on 24/7/2013 at 08:06
Quote Posted by Chade
At the same time, a lot of the complaints about the jumping, from myself as well, are based around the idea that this is the worse thing we've heard because jumping is so central to thief's core gameplay. If it's such a central part of the core gameplay, why are people unlikely to even notice it given half an hour of play? Shouldn't you be tripping over core gameplay elements a little more regularly then that?
I bet you wouldn't have missed jumping in the first half hour of Bafford's manor, if they had put a contextual jump in that wellhouse. The first you'd have even noticed it was missing would probably have been when you wanted to jump from carpet to carpet. Yet I would say that freeform jumping is very much a core part of Thief.
When you are playing a demo for a limited time, you probably want to see the content and are unlikely to dick around much with jumping. Also, I would think you are not very inclined to jump around guards, on account of it making noise.
