Thief (4) Features. What we know is in, what we know is out. - by SubJeff
Starker on 17/7/2013 at 03:54
Quote Posted by Chade
I'm hoping they go into more detail about how it works in this article.
Not really. Basically, you can only jump when the game says that you can jump. And that we knew already. If you are asking whether you can fail a jump, then no, it doesn't seem possible, iirc.
Shinrazero on 17/7/2013 at 03:55
If you can't jump to point A to point B freely (with room for error) and that jump is entirely dependent on a predefined point, it is restrictive. I appreciate your attention to detail but at the same time, it seems like you take great joy in splitting hairs while ignoring the larger picture, in this case they are restricting movement. Could it change? Sure. Yet we are discussing the limitations of jumping. I hadn't considered jumping a core mechanic until I read the news of how jumping is in the E3 demo.
Vae on 17/7/2013 at 04:01
(
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1930566&postcount=4) http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1930566&postcount=4
"In the form we saw at E3, it was comprehensively supported. It wasn't free-form, but if you expected to be able to jump from point a to point b, or to be able to climb up to a location, chances were very good that you could do it or a way to get there existed. It didn't get in the way, but was lacking something. As far as jumping goes, "it lacked support for player stupidity" might be a way of looking at it. Annoying but not game-breakingly so; this isn't a platformer. Climbing was the place where I would have liked less in the way of fixed points and more of self-determined climbing." ~ JerionQuote Posted by Chade
Vae, I've read that. It doesn't explain how it works at all
Yes it does...Jerion states that there are permission jumping points, and jumping "wasn't free-form".
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...and also leaves the door open to it changing in the future.
That can be said about anything, good or bad...yet, change is highly unlikely, considering the EM devs seem to be in love with Permission Anchor Points, as a design choice.
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Can I jump onto a mantleable wall?
If there is a Permission Anchor Point (PAP)
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Can I choose where to jump to when there are multiple possibilities?
If there are multiple PAP's.
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Can I press a button to force a jump even if the system doesn't want me to, similar to the drop button?
No PAP, no jump.
Quote Posted by Shinrazero
I hadn't considered jumping a core mechanic until I read the news of how jumping is in the E3 demo.
Yes indeed...natural, nuanced, free-action, is definitely intrinsic to the THIEF Experience.
Shinrazero on 17/7/2013 at 04:03
I remember what TDS was in development, swimmable water was hot topic here. Now the questions we ask "will jumping be restrictive?" Mad times, mad times. :tsktsk:
Chade on 17/7/2013 at 04:11
Quote Posted by Shinrazero
I appreciate your attention to detail but at the same time, it seems like you take great joy in splitting hairs while ignoring the larger picture
It's not splitting hairs at all. These are important questions that will have a big effect on my enjoyment of the game.
I'm not ignoring the larger context either. The only reason I keep going on about the questions is that it's relevant to the discussion with Vae. In my first post I also mentioned my general reaction:
Quote Posted by Chade
I think I'm pretty flexible with regards to movement controls. I wasn't overly worried about the fall down button, which at least still lets you move in the way that you want to. When you go past what I'm prepared to deal with, you're starting to get pretty bad.
Ok, that's a bit cryptic out of context. The point is I'm not happy, and considering I'm one of the most open-minded fans here, that's pretty bad.
EDIT: Vae, that stuff about PAP either doesn't answer my questions or is speculation on your part. And it's not just a case of "everything can change". In the first case, we had a fan observing how the game worked at E3 and clearly indicating he didn't know whether this was permanent. Now we have one of the developers stating this is how it is meant to be. That's a big difference.
Starker on 17/7/2013 at 04:16
Quote Posted by Vae
Permission Anchor Point (PAP)
Hmm... I think we need to be able to distinguish between the cases where rope arrows and jumping is concerned.
I propose 'designated jumping spots' and 'designated rope arrow spots'.
Vae on 17/7/2013 at 04:39
Quote Posted by Chade
It's not splitting hairs at all. These are important questions that will have a big effect on my enjoyment of the game.
Oh come now, Chade...Any other minor detail, will only determine the degree of sadness.
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Vae, that stuff about PAP either doesn't answer my questions or is speculation on your part.
It answers the fundamental question of whether jumping is free-form, and it's not...In the unlikely chance that there are exceptions, it won't make much difference in the overall quality of gameplay.
You're just having trouble coping with the impending sorrow...that is why you make such a desperate effort in finding something good, in what is clearly not.
Chade on 17/7/2013 at 05:00
Being able to jump to more then one point is a pretty damn big detail if you ask me! Being able to jump and mantle isn't as big, but I wouldn't call it small. Having a force jump button similar to the force drop button would be enormous. No, I'm not saying they're likely to do that.
And you're right, even the most optimistic answers are unlikely to make me happy about jumping restrictions. I said that twice now, so I don't know why I have to repeat it again.
Now, I could say that answers to these questions will help determine how unhappy I am, and that's true. But that's not the point! The point is that when I'm posting on the thief 4 anticipation forum, I'd like to find out more about how thief 4 works.
I can't believe I'm having to defend wanting to find out more about thief 4 on the thief 4 anticipation forum. Seriously?
As for your "answers", let's see ...
Quote Posted by Vae
Can I jump onto a mantleable wall? If there is a Permission Anchor Point (PAP)
No, really? You mean, if the designers let me jump onto a mantleable wall, then I'll be able to jump onto a mantleable wall? Wow! Stop blinding me with your dazzling insight!
Now if somebody who knows what they're talking about could answer the question, that would be great.
Quote Posted by Vae
Can I choose where to jump to when there are multiple possibilities? If there are multiple PAP's.
You don't know that at all! What if you can't choose between multiple PAP's? What if the game just chooses one for you? If you can choose between multiple ones, how does it work? Do you need to be looking at it? How do you know where to look? You don't know any of this.
Quote Posted by Vae
Can I press a button to force a jump even if the system doesn't want me to, similar to the drop button? No PAP, no jump.
This is probably true, yes, but I knew that when asking the question: it's so important that it would be good to get it confirmed directly. All we've seen so far is a vague description of the system.
Vae on 17/7/2013 at 06:12
Quote Posted by Chade
Can I jump onto a mantleable wall?
Quote Posted by Vae
If there is a Permission Anchor Point (PAP)
Quote Posted by Chade
No, really? You mean, if the designers let me jump onto a mantleable wall, then I'll be able to jump onto a mantealble wall?
:laff:...You're the one who asked the stupid question, dumbass.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote Posted by Chade
Can I choose where to jump to when there are
multiple possibilities.
Quote Posted by Vae
If there are multiple PAP's.
Quote Posted by Chade
You don't know that at all!
:D...Yes, I do!
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What if you can't choose between multiple PAP's?
:wot:...Then you wouldn't have "multiple possibilities".
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What if the game just chooses one for you?
:laff:...Then you wouldn't have "multiple possibilities".
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If you can choose between multiple ones, how does it work? Do you need to be looking at it? How do you know where to look?
These are minor details, which aren't relevant to the salient point.
