fett on 11/6/2013 at 02:37
ITT, no one:
1) Ever got into combat the first time they played through the LGS installments. Played through the game perfectly without getting caught or re-loading therefore never had to fight a guard.
2) Has ever won a sword fight or beat a guard to death with a blackjack before.
3) Fears they will be incapable of figuring out how to turn HUD elements off though PC players usually mod the lifeblood out of everything within 2 days of release.
4) Assumes there will be no toggle for HUD elements.
5) Is stressed out over 3rd person takedowns even though they worked fine in Skyrim and DX:HR (but Thief has never done that before! The tech wasn't there for T3 and if LGS had done it no one would have said a damn thing about it).
6) Is unable to cope with the fact that it is 2013, The Beatles broke up, and Firefly got cancelled. Things change, things are updated. Reality.
7) Worries they won't be able to turn focus off, though every stealth game for the last 5 years allows hints, on screen cues, text, subtitles, and so forth to be toggled.
8) Can't differentiate between fog and darkness - and thinks it matters even if there isn't one.
9) Has changed their definition of sneaking around since T1-T3 because Jesus Effing Christ, you guys - it's the exactly the same. I don't know what video you watched but it's the same.
10) Thinks game is being released tomorrow and will look exactly like this.
FFS, I sound like Stitch. Kill me. :p
heywood on 11/6/2013 at 02:40
It looks like they've carried too many things over from Human Revolution: XP, animated takedowns, excessive info popping up. We already knew about the animated takedowns, but where the hell did XP come from? This could be a deal breaker. That's probably my biggest complaint. Focus mode combat reminds me of VATS from F3 and I don't like it, but it's not a deal breaker as long as it's optional. And seeing Garrett's hands the whole time he's crouched is also pretty annoying.
The footage they showed was very combat-centric, so I didn't get a good idea of how well the stealth works.
There were a few positives though. The biggest plus is that the environment looks very Thiefy. I also like darkening the corners of the screen as a light meter. It just seems more intuitive to me than checking the light gem. The way Garrett peeks out from cover also looks interesting.
I think the pop-up wheel for selecting weapons/items will be a console specific thing and the UI will be different on the PC - that's what they did for DX:HR.
And did anybody else notice that when player died, the context menu included an option to load the last checkpoint but not an option to load a saved game? Wonder if that means checkpoint saves only. Not sure whether I'd be OK with that.
fett on 11/6/2013 at 02:44
I don't understand why the people who plan to avoid combat (as in the originals) are worried about a combat system ala Fallout3. If you're not going to play the game that way, why do you care? Have you never played through the others in a killing rampage, just to see if you can do it? You die a lot - kind of like the dev did in the demo here. How is this different from the originals? It's like you've lost your minds or have never played T1-T3. Are you listening to yourselves? I'm not defending the entire demo but for chrissakes, there's nothing in there that wasn't in the originals or can't likely be turned off.
SneakyJack on 11/6/2013 at 02:45
Quote Posted by heywood
And did anybody else notice that when player died, the context menu included an option to load the last checkpoint but not an option to load a saved game? Wonder if that means checkpoint saves only. Not sure whether I'd be OK with that.
I'd hope not. If there's any game that requires the ability to reload after just about any enemy encounter it's Thief. One of the only complaints I had about Bioshock Infinite was it's terrible save system.
Quote Posted by fett
I don't understand why the people who plan to avoid combat (as in the originals) are worried about a combat system ala Fallout3. If you're not going to play the game that way,
why do you care? Have you never played through the others in a killing rampage, just to see if you can do it? You die a lot - kind of like the dev did in the demo here. How is this different from the originals? It's like you've lost your minds or have never played T1-T3. Are you listening to yourselves? I'm not defending the entire demo but for chrissakes, there's nothing in there that wasn't in the originals or can't likely be turned off.
The straight up blind negativity has been out of hand for a while now. It's like there's a contest to see who can convert the most people to the torch wielding mob before they storm EM headquarters. People here are more afraid of change/updates than any group I've seen.
Springheel on 11/6/2013 at 02:46
Quote:
I think it takes a small disconnect that wasn't a problem and turns it into a slightly larger disconnect that isn't a problem. And I think drawing a line between the old and new combat and claiming one is perfectly fine while the other is unacceptable is ... odd.
Would you care to point to where I said old combat was "perfectly fine"?
What I said was that I think taking Garrett and making him capable of _unarmed_ takedowns of fully trained and armed swordsmen makes a significant change to the character. It makes him a far deadlier melee combatant, which is the opposite direction I'd prefer to see the game going. YMMV.
Renault on 11/6/2013 at 02:54
Quote Posted by fett
If you're not going to play the game that way,
why do you care?If things like combat systems and Focus mode and god knows what else are in the game, than it's going to at least be partially designed with those things in mind. C'mon man, you designed how many levels for T2X? You don't give the player tools and weapons and layout the environment a certain way if you don't intend for them to do certain, specific things. It's like saying don't worry about all the monsters if you're just going to sneak through Doom.
Thief used combat as a last resort - this Thief is making it a viable strategy. That's a huge departure from the game we've been following for years.
jtr7 on 11/6/2013 at 03:00
Quote Posted by fett
I don't understand why the people who plan to avoid combat (as in the originals) are worried about a combat system ala Fallout3. If you're not going to play the game that way,
why do you care? Have you never played through the others in a killing rampage, just to see if you can do it? You die a lot - kind of like the dev did in the demo here. How is this different from the originals? It's like you've lost your minds or have never played T1-T3. Are you listening to yourselves? I'm not defending the entire demo but for chrissakes, there's nothing in there that wasn't in the originals or can't likely be turned off.
What to do want one of us to say? It's not gonna get anyone very far to state one doesn't understand when there isn't any sign of an attempt to begin with.
Can anyone make a rebuttal against perceived hysteria without being absolutely hysterical themselves? Goodness!
fett on 11/6/2013 at 03:04
Yet, it's a feature that can be implemented without harming sneaking at all. Aside from stupid boss fights (of which they have repented) EM managed to design the environments in DX:HR for viable combat and sneaking gameplay style. You weren't forced to play aggressively, but you could. It's pretty clear from that demo that while you can choose to play aggressively (as in the originals), it is disadvantageous. I can go up against 3-4 guards in the originals and win. Garrett couldn't survive two in that demo.
As for T2X, we actually did design tools and environments for aggressive vs. stealth gameplay. Things like explosive and ice arrows, and EMP grenades are specifically designed to be used when the player is discovered or goes on the offensive. The environments were designed (mostly) with large, open spaces for combative styles with the new weapons, along with stealthy paths for traditional players. This was a conscious and much discussed decision because of the new tools. If you played through it and never realized you could have fought your way through, it perfectly proves my case. If you don't play aggressively, these issues will not affect you. But I for one would have enjoyed a more developed combat/defense system in the originals. This also worked in Dishonored, and I only used it when caught. The fact that Corvo, like Garrett was a bit weak with the sword, encouraged me to sneak. This sounds exactly like the balance the T4 devs are describing. They've said "darkness is your friend" about a hundred times. But when you act suspicious of every word out of their mouths...well, I don't know what to tell you. The demo looks pretty much like what they've described so far. And we still haven't seen hardcore mode, or heard anything about toggling HUD text, etc. Why is everyone freaking out?
@jtr - we obviously have extremely different definitions of hysteria, friend. :)
Chade on 11/6/2013 at 03:07
Quote Posted by Springheel
Would you care to point to where I said old combat was "perfectly fine"?
Fair enough, I took it as implied.
Quote Posted by Springheel
What I said was that I think taking Garrett and making him capable of _unarmed_ takedowns of fully trained and armed swordsmen makes a significant change to the character. It makes him a far deadlier melee combatant, which is the opposite direction I'd prefer to see the game going. YMMV.
But it doesn't make him a deadlier melee combatant, because he doesn't have a weapon. Maybe you can claim that not using a weapon
implies that he must be spending more time off-camera training, but this is an implication that you've made on your own, without help from any material coming from EM. Are you really going to obsess about things that will never be mentioned in the game or in any material attached to the game?
Once we stop talking about vague implications that EM has never pointed to, and start talking about real changes in the actual game, this looks pretty good. Now all of Garrett's tools are stealth tools first, and combat tools second. No longer can a training mission possibly teach combat without blackjacking. No longer can the player think about entering combat without also considering a stealthy knockout. This is
exactly the direction I want the series to head in!
Random_Taffer on 11/6/2013 at 03:07
Quote Posted by fett
5) Is stressed out over 3rd person takedowns even though they worked fine in Skyrim and DX:HR (but Thief has never done that before! The tech wasn't there for T3 and if LGS had done it no one would have said a damn thing about it).
They work fine in Skyrim (for me) because they don't happen every time you kill something. They happen every once in a while to spice things up and I'm fine with that. Had they happened every time, it would have gotten old. Quickly.
I felt they looked silly in DX:HR because it would show other enemies that were close by standing frozen and oblivious while you loudly beat the living shit out of a guy right behind them. At least Bethesda was smart enough to make the kill cams not happen while other enemies were around. (Unless modded, it only works if there's only one enemy remaining- and not every time.) Even though the take-down cams were cool in DX, I felt that it did break immersion. But that's just me.
