Chade on 18/6/2013 at 13:08
Quote Posted by Zewp
You missed the part where a guard got suspicious at the end and then instead of investigating, did absolutely nothing ... Also, I'm pretty sure in the previous Thief games if you sneaked by mere inches from a guard, you'd get discovered. You had to keep your distance from the guards.
In the original games, if you were crouched in a completely dark area, you were pretty damn close to invisible. As a general rule of thumb, one of the things you learn as you get better at thief is that the guards are way less attentive then you assumed when you started playing.
I didn't miss the part you pointed out, I just have no way of knowing whether Nathan interpreted it correctly. Guards in the thief games do have a lowest level of alertness in which they do this.
Quote Posted by Zewp
Then there's also the main complaint about the completely horrendous and out of place escape scene which is basically cut directly from Assassin's Creed. Seriously, **** QTEs and whichever developer still thinks they're welcome in modern videogames.
yeah, everyone complains about that part. It sounds terrible.
EDIT:
New Horizon, I have never played DX:HR with any of the extra UI elements enabled, and I think _Atti_'s comments about quest markers in that game are completely and utterly false. There was always enough information to go on. I wouldn't even say it was hard. He's flat out wrong on that one.
thiefinthedark on 18/6/2013 at 14:15
Try playing Skyrim with markers disabled. There's barely enough text in the quest journal to tell which quest is which, let alone what you are supposed to do / where you are going.
Renzatic on 18/6/2013 at 19:16
Quote Posted by Zewp
Well said! Being able to disable casualized features doesn't mean their effect on the game disappears.
Much like everything, it all depends. One of the things that always annoyed me about Dishonored was that the game assumed you'd always have objective markers on. The game wouldn't ever get too descriptive with explaining mission objectives or character locations because it was assumed you'd know exactly where everything is. Like if I talked to the maid in the tavern, she'd always say something like "blah and blah want to meet you", never "blah and blah want to meet you, they're out next to the old factory doing some target practice". I'd always end up spending 20 minutes scouring the area for the people I needed to talk to because I kept the markers off.
My experience with The Knife of Dunwall was exactly the same. I got an optional objective to overload some steam valves to blow up the building I was in, but it never described to me where I needed to go to do this, and I had no map I could immediately access to help clue me in. It was just "go use the steam valves", and that was it. About halfway through Knife, I got sick of it and just turned the markers on.
DX:HR was on the flip side of that. You had access to a map, and the characters were a little more descriptive with your objectives and tasks. They explained things to you in a more realistic manner, giving you enough information to actually act upon. It wasn't a step by step hand-holding guide, but you had an idea of where you needed to head after talking to someone. For example, if both games required you to find a crate of explosives...
Dishonored would tell you "hey, we need to find those explosives before they fall into the wrong hands...", and then nothing. You'd get a pop up saying "find crate of explosives", and a floating marker telling you where to go because otherwise you'd have no information to work off of.
HR would tell you "hey, we need to find those explosives before they fall into the wrong hands. Last we heard, the Derpy Group had access to them. The current intel we have shows that they haven't moved since the initial theft, so they'll probably be hiding the crate somewhere in their base on the north side of town". It didn't tell you exactly where they were, but you had an idea of where to look.
I never once turned on the objective markers or other extraneous UI bling in DX:HR. They were there as an assist for people who needed them, but they weren't necessary.
This is how I believe it's going to turn out for Thief. They're building the game as if you won't be using them, but adding them in for people who want them.
sNeaksieGarrett on 18/6/2013 at 20:12
Well said Renz, and I hope you're correct (about THIEF.)
Beleg Cúthalion on 18/6/2013 at 20:26
Quote Posted by Renzatic
They're building the game as if you won't be using them, but adding them in for people who want them.
...like they clearly stated it for Focus. Hopefully they keep it that way, after all _Atti_ is right in that there can be several things screwed up that are not visible at first sight.
Renzatic on 18/6/2013 at 20:35
Yup. There's plenty that could go wrong, but the inclusion of these things doesn't necessarily mean they will. It's one of the many, many things about the game we're gonna have to take a wait and see approach on before we can pass judgement.
And before someone says it, no. I'm not 100% sold on the game. I've said that many a time before already. I've seen plenty of stuff in the gameplay videos that I either flat out don't like, or makes me a little wary. But one thing I've learned over the years is that sometimes a feature that sounds like a terrible idea when described turns out to not be all that bad, or even beneficial in practice. Plus there's the fact that they've still got well over a year left in development, which gives them a good amount of time to tweak the crap out everything, and make it all work more smoothly.
I think once we're nearing release, we'll have enough to make a judgement call. Right now though, things are still too early, too rough. As far as we know, EM could've been using E3 to gauge responses as much as show off what they've got. Things can still change dramatically.
jay pettitt on 18/6/2013 at 20:40
Quote:
They're building the game as if you won't be using them, but adding them in for people who want them.
I suspect it's easier to say and not do than it is to do.
For example, they've gone heavy on the oh-so-cinematic reduced colour palette post processing effects, pretty much ruling out the use of colour in the environment as a design element to signpost information to the player. It's early days (if 4 years in can ever be thought to count as early days) and we haven't seen much, so take it with a pinch of salt - but this is pretty much first principles stuff that they're goofing up.
New Horizon on 18/6/2013 at 20:54
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
...like they clearly stated it for Focus. Hopefully they keep it that way, after all _Atti_ is right in that there can be several things screwed up that are not visible at first sight.
We only know 'officially' that they're balancing the game without focus. We don't know if the entire game will be balanced as if everything is turned off. That would be somewhat suicidal of them since the game DOES have to work both ways.
Renzatic on 18/6/2013 at 21:03
Quote Posted by New Horizon
We only know 'officially' that they're balancing the game without focus. We don't know if the entire game will be balanced as if everything is turned off. That would be somewhat suicidal of them since the game DOES have to work both ways.
For combat and contextual takedowns, you're right. But for focus, the floating alert icons, and waypoint markers? They're all feedback features. You could mod them into Thief 1 & 2 and they'd work exactly as intended without having to modify the core gameplay at all.
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
I suspect it's easier to say and not do than it is to do.
For example, they've gone heavy on the oh-so-cinematic reduced colour palette post processing effects, pretty much ruling out the use of colour in the environment as a design element to signpost information to the player. It's early days (if 4 years in can ever be thought to count as early days) and we haven't seen much, so take it with a pinch of salt - but this is pretty much first principles stuff that they're goofing up.
Errr. I'm not sure I'm following you here. They haven't desaturated the colors so much they can't use environmental colors as a subtle guide. Though I don't know if you're saying that's a good thing or a bad one...
theBlackman on 18/6/2013 at 21:09
Quote Posted by Zewp
.
[...]Also, I'm pretty sure in the previous Thief games if you sneaked by mere inches from a guard, you'd get discovered.[..].
Actually in the original games, when you became proficient at sneaking, you could move right up behind a guard and "nudge" him away from a wall or object to give yourself space to pass him.
The trick was to get right at his back. then every time he shuffled his feet move into him. With patience you could move him forward and gain enough room to sidle through behind him. Many of us used that to move a guard who was blocking an exit or entrance to a room.
That aside, I am getting more and more disappointed in the developers/designers, who keep telling me how "We stayed true to the original games" all the time when the so-called former players who loved the game, crapped it up so much.
To be blunt,
fett and company did a much better job with T2X than I see happening here. From what I've seen and read so far this is another abortion like TDS.
