henke on 12/6/2013 at 14:35
Quote Posted by fett
I think you guys are nuts.
Hahaha yeah it's funny seeing the haters' worst predictions being dissuaded one by one, and yet many of them stubbornly stick to the course they've set out on. Pretty soon they'll have to scrape the bottom of the hatebarrel for things to complain about:
They're using the wrong font! No buy! >:UZewp on 12/6/2013 at 14:44
Quote Posted by fett
Dude, - there are like 2 things in that list that they've "said." The rest is clearly visible in the demos. Yes, there is stuff for the babies, but how many times to they say "the UI elements can be turned off,"? You're saying they're just out and out lying about that, when every other game in the last few years, stealth or not, has that exact feature?
I'm saying they out and out lied about trying to tailor this so Thief fans will also enjoy this... thing. They keep saying they're keeping true to the Thief roots, but their actions speak otherwise. It's like they sent out a survey to Thief fans that asked "What
don't you want to see in a Thief sequel," then made a checklist of everything people mentioned and put it into this game. I was expecting this game to be bad, but I really wasn't expecting the absolute atrocity I saw in the gameplay videos.
Also, let's address some of your points then.
Quote Posted by fett
"There's also a lot of the UI you can enable/disable depending on how much help [do you] want." (in reference to hand-holding)
"We worked very, very hard to make sure that we are going to talk to the fan, it's going to be challenging, but if you want to just enjoy the ride and not fight with the AI, we give some options to turn off if you don't want."
This we'll have to wait and see then. So far they've talked a lot, but we haven't actually seen this baby-stuff can be turned off.
Quote:
"There are geographical paths that are multiple options, but what we also have is - how do you deal with scenarios, just in this space there are a ton of ways you could deal with the situation." (in reference to linearity)
Multiple paths to objectives != non-linearity. Dark Messiah has multiple paths to its objectives, but your progression through the level is still entirely linear. From what we've seen in the gameplay videos, this seems to be the case with Nu Thief as well.
Quote:
"The XP is for measuring how good the player is." (in reference to xp = $. Sounds like it's simply something to enhance your stats screen post-mission)
I seem to recall reading an article that said XP is for improving character skills. We'll have to wait and see on this one then.
Quote:
"You might want to pick your battles." (in reference to forced combat. Meaning - fighting is not a good option)
The gameplay videos showed that fighting was actually a good option. AI is retarded beyond redemption and you've got special Focus effects and SLOW-MO to deal with them. Don't forget the enemy alert indicators and indicators that shows when enemies are going to attack. Yes, this game is clearly focused on stealth with combat only being a very poor optional choice. :) :) :)
The combat in the Nu Thief gameplay video looked very similar to that of Dishonored, which means, not at all the bad option that combat was in the original Thief games.
Quote:
"If you're a fan of the old games, we worked very hard to make you feel like you [are] back with an old friend. We respect the foundation. The origins you expect to see are there."
Moosekak.
Quote:
Pickpocketing (
Use focus to get more phat lewt :) :) :) ), 1st person blackjacks (
but all other takedowns are context sensitive button pushes for CINEMATIC EFFECT), 1st person rope arrows (rope arrows!) (
only in predetermined locations, not any location that has a wooden surface), escalating alert levels for AI, dynamic environment(
Complete with helpful little indicators above enemy heads:) :) ), vertical stealth solutions, no pictorial clue of the target object to be stolen (
FOCUS), vague/optional maps, backstories, exploratory elements, noise distractions, readables for entertainment, secrets, and objective help, central hub with district sidequests (which we all clamored for around the time of T3)....
tl;dr, Nu Thief is an abomination that EM should be ashamed of.
It's clear what this game's target audience is and that is definitely not Thief fans.
fett on 12/6/2013 at 14:46
It honestly reminds me of religious nuts or Fox New viewers who despite any evidence to the contrary continue to parrot their worst fears based on very little information.
There's a balance - I can't say that any of us will be happy with any 3rd person anything, XP awards or any reward for physical confrontations. I'm even looking at those tall towers in the demos thinking, "Yes, but can I climb to the top of those? Because if I can't, this is going to suck." But we're a year away and you can only judge what's been shown so far. I'm imagining the demos with everything turned off and it looks to me pretty much how Thief should in 2013. No game, not one, not ever, there are no examples that started in the late 90's and have sequels that look and play the same today. Is this just a "bring hair-metal back" mentality or simple refusal to understand the way the game industry works? You can't freeze something in time.
Of course it looks like Dishonored and other "modern" games - because it's trying to be a modern game? What, you want them to come out and say, "This game will really appeal to fans who enjoy games from the mid-90's!" That's ridiculous. It looks like Dishonored and Assassin's Creed because both of those were informed heavily by Thief to begin with. The devs can't help that other stealth games have been made since T2. It seems that EM is being held unduly responsible for many things that are simply part of the business they are in - which is to sell games. Hopefully they can do so in an artful and creative way, like LGS did, but it's not 2002 anymore. I love the comments that "they should just change the name." Will you play if it they change the name? If that's the only thing that makes or breaks it...I don't even know how to talk to you about the whole thing. Wow.
@Zwep - you're not making a very strong case when your first few rebuttals are filled with "we'll wait and see," and "it seems like." Exactly my point - there is very little to confirm your fears and you're freaking out. Wait until there is no UI customization, *then* freak out. I'll be right there with you, believe me. We've seen 3.5 minutes of a single mission, early in the game - you simply can't judge the entire thing by that. The first Dishonored trailer looked like a freaking bloodbath, and I've ghosted it three times now. I'm not saying you shouldn't be concerned if those things bother you. I just think it's a huge leap from "we'll wait and see" to OMG EM HAS DESTROYED MY LIFE. You're being a little dramatic, dontcha think?
Then again, I still enjoy T3, so what the hell do I know.
Queue on 12/6/2013 at 14:59
Quote Posted by fett
... I love the comments that "they should just change the name." Will you play if it they change the name? ....
Since the demo shows that it's all about the hands, they could call it,
HANDS.
Then the sequels could be-- "Hands: Across the Water" & "Hands: Across the Sky"
boo
Zewp on 12/6/2013 at 15:11
No, I'm really not. EM has gone and made a Thief game that goes against absolutely everything that makes the Thief games as good as they are. The original Thief games were good because they plopped you down on a map which you then had to figure out for yourself by reading an incredibly vague map that often didn't even chart the entire level. Then you had to use your very limited tools to complete your objectives. On your own.
The very fact that EM has included things like objective markers shows just how badly they have missed the point of the Thief series. The original Thief games were designed in such a way that objective markers would either not have been possible or would have taken away the entire point of playing the games. Sure, you can apparently switch off objective markers, but the game is still designed with them in mind and their influence will affect how levels and objectives work.
Then you've got all the combat additions. Holy shit, I mean... if your focus isn't on combat, why add so many combat-specific features to the game? Could those resources not have been better spent improving the stealth sections of the game? The combat in the original Thief games was entirely simplistic because they wanted to actively discourage engaging enemies in combat. This does not seem to be the case with Nu Thief.
Then you've got all the dumbing down. Indicators showing enemy awareness, minimaps, focus, indicators showing when an enemy is going to attack, objective markers, scoreboards, flame arrows somehow leaving you invisible when drawn, context-sensitive takedowns, 3rd person combat, etc.
I don't expect them to make a game that is exactly like Thief 2 or Thief Gold, but if you want to make a sequel to a franchise, at least make sure it doesn't miss the point of that franchise entirely. Why do you think the Thief franchise is still so well-loved today? It's because they don't contain all the needless dumbing down that has become standard in the stealth genre lately. If the title at the top of the Thief gameplay video didn't actually say Thief Gameplay Video, I would not have known it is a Thief game, because it is absolutely nothing like Thief. It is everything that is wrong with the stealth genre, and modern gaming as a whole, rolled into one little game.
What ME tried to show us was Thief, but what I saw was Dishonored x Assassin's Creed. If ME doesn't want to make a proper sequel to Thief, they should not name that sequel Thief. They should name it something else entirely because then I wouldn't expect a proper sequel to Thief. I would know to ignore their game. Instead, I hear they're making a sequel to Thief, one of my childhood favorite games, my interest is piqued, I look into it and all I see is them bastardizing the franchise while having the audacity to not only call it a Thief game, but to also claim that they're trying to stay true to Thief's roots.
Even DS, as dumbed down as it was, was still a Thief game and stayed true to the roots of the Thief franchise. Nu Thief does not. Nu Thief is about as much a Thief game as painting a Volkswagen red makes it a Ferrari.
fett on 12/6/2013 at 15:15
Okay, well I obviously know nothing about making a Thief game, or what lies at its core, or designing levels to compliment various players, or implementing new ideas into the franchise. Thanks for the lesson. We should definitely all boycott this game.
Zewp on 12/6/2013 at 15:17
Obviously you don't. It's good that you're able to admit it.
fett on 12/6/2013 at 15:18
I'll let someone else point out the absurdity of your last post. Cheers.
Random_Taffer on 12/6/2013 at 15:20
Quote Posted by Zewp
Obviously you don't. It's good that you're able to admit it.
Knock it off. You're talking to one of the T2X devs. Show a little respect.
I'm not a giant fan of things I've seen/heard thus far either, but we are going a bit extreme here... If you're venting, that's fine, but please say so. That way what you say will be taken with a grain of salt.
Queue on 12/6/2013 at 15:24
Know what the hell you're talking about (or to whom you're speaking) before opening your mouth and vomiting recycled garbage, Zewp.
... welcome to the forum.
