SneakyJack on 11/6/2013 at 17:19
You also have to remember that even though people are griping about it on the internet - most of the time it's still the vocal minority that will go out of their way to take the time to complain about it on the internet. Shockingly enough I've been told by people that played and enjoyed Thief 3 (I know, right? People enjoying different things is a weird concept) and even if they didn't have fun with it they wouldn't have taken the time to post about it on a forum or rage about it toward the developers. Most people don't waste their time doing so as much as the internet would hate to admit. Instead they find a game they do like and go forward living their lives.
I'm not saying it's wrong to express and opinion online (we're doing that right now!) but looking at EM's forums and facebook after one gameplay presentation for a game that is still who knows how far out from release is not the best way to gauge what the final sales of the game are going to look like or what the final opinion will be.
Or even what the final game will be for that matter. In a perfect world they'd take the reactions and tweak the game accordingly.. but even I will admit that's not likely to happen at this stage being that they've already poured so much time and resources into multiple revamps of it as it is.
Hopefully some of the biggest complaints will be toggle-able as the HUD overall seems to be the worst offender in the eyes of most who have seen the gameplay footage.
Random_Taffer on 11/6/2013 at 17:28
To be completely honest, I actually don't mind the xp thing. Yeah, they're getting xp for killing, but I'm pretty sure they're going to get just as much if not more for ghosting it when they reach a checkpoint or end mission. Probably perfect ghost or non-lethal bonus xp as well just like in DX.
I'm interested to hear what we can actually upgrade and how they'll explain it. (Since focus is part of the story.) And how xp will differ from loot. Maybe loot will buy you equipment, but xp will let you upgrade it? Or maybe a certain amount of loot turns into xp or vice versa. I'm sure we'll probably be able to upgrade the amount of focus we get, softer footfalls, better hiding devices, sure. Standard fare.
I guess I don't really know how I feel about it, but I think it could be done well.
Springheel on 11/6/2013 at 17:32
Quote:
But I don't understand how you link this... this measure of how "impressive" we feel Garrett's combat abilities are, with the actual difficulty of combat in the game.
Oh, you may have misunderstood me. I didn't say combat was any easier _mechanically_. (although with bullet time and the "press one button for automatic takedown" I suspect that it will be), it's just that Garrett as a _character_ has been made more impressive. Just like if Garrett could kill guards at a distance by staring at them, it's not mechanically that different from shooting arrows, but it changes the feel of the character considerably.
bartekb81 on 11/6/2013 at 17:41
what I like from this video:
-atmosphere (lighting and colors)
-body awareness
-pickpocketing and loot picking
-various types of arrows
what I dislike:
-pop-ups everywhere (guards, xp, picking the loot, markers, visible sounds) - I hope there will be possibility to turn MOST of them off
-hands too visible while creeping: it looks somewhat unnaturally
-black fog while hiding in shadows (at least reduce its radius/ make it more transparent...)
-gaining experience ON EVERY STEP (if I must choose, I would rather prefer gaining some abilities while progressing through the story)
-equipment wheel (I guess it would be changed on pc)
what I'm afraid of:
-overall gameplay
-small missions with frequent checkpoints...(nightmare of nowadays fps)
-focus helping too much (especially in fights)
Renzatic on 11/6/2013 at 17:49
Quote Posted by Springheel
Oh, you may have misunderstood me. I didn't say combat was any easier _mechanically_. (although with bullet time and the "press one button for automatic takedown" I suspect that it will be)...
Bullet time, maybe. It depends on how the whole focus thing is implemented. As in can you spam it, or is it something you can only do a couple of times per mission. The automatic takedowns are only activated when you catch a guard unaware, so it won't make direct combat any easier.
Quote:
it's just that Garrett as a _character_ has been made more impressive. Just like if Garrett could kill guards at a distance by staring at them, it's not mechanically that different from shooting arrows, but it changes the feel of the character considerably.
Eh, sorta. Maybe. The move where he drops down from above to knock a guard out isn't exactly a superhero move that requires any special powers to perform. I mean it's basically the airborne knockouts from Thief 1 & 2, but with a cool but ultimately pointless 3 second animation tagged to it.
fett on 11/6/2013 at 18:48
Quote Posted by Brethren
Maybe everyone's perception here is just way off because we've been playing Thief so long. But I still think you can make a game easier/more accessible without the overdose of hand-holding created by all these on-screen indicators, markers, Focus, and VATS. All that stuff just seems like a case of lazy design. There's got to be a better way to do it.
I agree, but IMO it worked so well in DX:HR (most of it) that I'm probably being over-trusting with the Thief IP.
I can't name specific FMs really - It's been awhile. I tried the DrK missions and found myself crouching around in dark sewers looking for missing keys while in-escapable AI's hunted me down at every turn. The objectives were vague and the placement of critical items made no sense to me. Purah used to do this. When I beta-tested the Calendra stuff, it was ridiculous. He eventually toned down some things which ended up serving the plot better anyway. To me, FM's like Ominous Bequest, The 7th Crystal, Saturio, Sledge's last one (can't remember the name, lol) - all are examples of striking the balance between frustration and reward, whereas most others I've played lean much too far toward the frustration side. I understand they are made for experienced players who need more challenge than the originals, but since I suck at playing Thief to begin with, I don't want to jump through 12 hoops to get the note that tells me where to find the puzzle to get the key to find the other key. I just want to lockpick the fucking door and get on with life.
I'm not saying people shouldn't make these FM's because obviously there is a huge audience for them. But a new AAA Thief game should not ever ever ever be so frustrating because it needs to appeal to gamers who feel at home with DX:HR, Dishonored, etc. There is a wide gap between boneheaded COD fans who won't even buy Thief, and more cerebral gamers who enjoy Stalker and DX:HR. It seems to me that T4 is shooting for much the same demographic as DX and Dishonored, which is smart from a business perspective. There's a big enough market for it without having to include Halo style gameplay. The audience for those types of games is also growing, but only because DX, Dishonored, and Bioshock (ohjesuspleaseletsnotgetintothatagain) have *made* them more accessible (Bioshock being the dumbest of the three - but it opened people up to a new type of game that they didn't even know they liked).
As much as TTLG wants to think of LGS as that no-name indie band that plays at that dumpy coffee shop in the abandoned subway, they weren't. They were a legit gamehouse with talented people who were in the right place at the right time. There were huge financial investments and returns and they folded because they weren't able to appeal to as wide of an audience as a John Romero game. The reboot has to be smart in that regard - especially considering the massive dump Laura Croft just took all over the desks at Square Enix. If awarding XP is the price to pay for a good stealth game built on the LGS legacy, I'll willingly pay it. We can scream and cry about how we shouldn't have to, but this is the current state of things and I'd rather support Thief than another stupid Gears of War game. And it's not even a "lesser of the evils" if I enjoy the hell out of it like I did DX:HR.
frogdude on 11/6/2013 at 19:30
Quote Posted by fett
As much as TTLG wants to think of LGS as that no-name indie band that plays at that dumpy coffee shop in the abandoned subway, they weren't. They were a legit gamehouse with talented people who were in the right place at the right time. There were huge financial investments and returns and they folded because they weren't able to appeal to as wide of an audience as a John Romero game. The reboot has to be smart in that regard - especially considering the massive dump Laura Croft just took all over the desks at Square Enix. If awarding XP is the price to pay for a good stealth game built on the LGS legacy, I'll willingly pay it. We can scream and cry about how we shouldn't have to, but this is the current state of things and I'd rather support Thief than another stupid Gears of War game. And it's not even a "lesser of the evils" if I enjoy the hell out of it like I did DX:HR.
Excellent! I totally agree with you!:) I don't mind Stephen Russel changed that much (although i would have taken him any day over the new guy) the xp, the hud and ninja-style focus system as long as the core gameplay, atmosphere and story are Thief and the franchise enters a new age. Some things have to be changed, the old formula will simply not work for today's audience.
All in all, as i said before, i think the gameplay video is pretty good and we should rejoice that the devs are at least trying to deliver a good thief experience/atmosphere. I so hope this ends up as good as Deus Ex:HR has.....
Renzatic on 11/6/2013 at 20:10
Quote Posted by bukary
...Polish journalist who saw E3 gameplay presentation claims that Garrett will spend XP points on buying new combat and stealth skills. Ooops...
Egggghhh. I really don't like this whole DXing up of Thief. DX is DX and Thief is Thief, EM. Just because you're working with both properties doesn't mean you have to slap them under the same immersive sim umbrella.
Vivian on 11/6/2013 at 20:12
eeehhhhh... yeah. I agree. That is stupid. I always hated that system anyway. "Boy, shooting that guy in the face sure taught me something about picking locks, no mistake."
