fett on 11/6/2013 at 15:16
I don't want to beat the T2X horse, but I think another thing bears saying:
Dave Reigel, Alex, and I spent literal HOURS discussing game difficulty. The reigning opinion with most people on the T2X teams was that while we wanted to incorporate some new things from fan missions, most fan missions are ridiculously hard. There are either no or obscure hints, things hidden in unrelated hidey-holes, too many AI just for the hell of it, etc. IMO, the fan missions of late have gone off the deep end trying to be challenging to the point that most of them are simply not fun to play. When I got frustrated in the original games it was NEVER because of the design - it was always because of my own inability to approach the obstacle more creatively. That is a very fine, subtle line, but it exists and you recognize it when it's done properly.
Case in point, I have never played the Dark Mod (I love you NH, don't taze me, bro). I installed it a few weeks ago and gave it a shot. Awesome training mission. I get to first included FM for it and 3 minutes in I'm so frustrated I can't enjoy the game. Find a note that tells you about a rock. The rock has a key under it. Use the key to open a drain pipe. The drain pipe brings you out right under where the rock was with no obvious way of progressing through the level. After 20 minutes of trying to figure this out and not finding a walkthrough, I said "f*** it," and turned it off. Do I want my hand held? Obviously not. I like SS2, Stalker, DX, etc. But the reason I *liked* those games is because they knew when to hold your hand and when to throw you to the wolves. Many here seem under the impression that Thief did the latter all the time, which is patently untrue. The only prohibition to killing guards was on expert. No one even thought about ghosting it until months after the game was released, and it took a few years past T2 for it really to become "a thing." But the games weren't designed with that in mind. Hell, the very first TDP mission has you creeping up behind a guard blocking a doorway (after the "people to worry about are on the inside" convo in Bafford's basement). You are intended to either kill or KO this guard. I can name a dozen other such instances like this. The only reason you ever ghosted it was because you challenged yourself. Obviously, LGS never even intended the game to be played this way. Yet, EM seems to have the intention to ensure that you can on T4, just like Dishonored.
What I'm getting at is that there's a balance between challenging and hand-holding, and you draw a bigger crowd if you make something that appeals to both, via toggling HUD effects, hints, direction arrows, etc. Why would you not do that if you could?
Though I agree - the xp and headshot bullshit I could do without. But I don't think either of these need be indicative of the entire design philosophy. They weren't for DX:HR.
Lockpicker on 11/6/2013 at 15:28
Bought Thief I when it came out way back when...loved it.
Thief 2 was even a better gaming experience for me...loved it.
Thief 3 was unplayable for me...the controls, the feel, the ragdoll...LOL...hated it.
Just watched the Thief 4 E3 movie and no matter what I read this this Thread...I literally can't wait to play it.
It's different, yes. But it'll be better than Thief 3, that's for sure!
Carry on taffers...carry on.
Renzatic on 11/6/2013 at 16:05
Quote Posted by jtr7
It ain't Thief if the masses are accustomed to it. The masses rejected and continue to reject Thief, and now these devs are taking Thief "back" to the masses LGS shunned. Revenge is sweet.
Yeah, LGS was the videogame studio equivalent of a hipster band who only used a ukulele and a theremin, and were greatly disappointed when their games were commercial successes that garnered a huge amount of lasting respect across the industry even 15 years later. It's amazing the publishers, who absolutely hate the game, have dumped large amounts of money on three sequels to it.
Infinitron on 11/6/2013 at 16:09
Quote Posted by fett
What I'm getting at is that there's a balance between challenging and hand-holding, and you draw a bigger crowd if you make something that appeals to both, via toggling HUD effects, hints, direction arrows, etc. Why would you not do that if you could?
The game that "appeals to both" is a utopian dream. Whenever a developer tells you he's making a game that will "appeal to a wider audience while retaining core values", he's lying to you. Something is always lost in the transition,
always.
Now, the question is, do you accept that compromise, or do you demand something better and go to Kickstarter? You're a developer of T2X, fett. You have the credibility. Why not put together a team?
This is 2013. We no longer need to eat the lowest common denominator swill that the publishers are feeding us. We can get games that are made for people who are just like us.
TriangleTooth on 11/6/2013 at 16:15
Thief 1 was a commercial success, Thief 2 was not. Bear in mind LGS needed to make less money to be called a success in those days than devs today do.
The lightgem does seem to be 3 state. The hands only appear when crouched, which makes it even more weird is he balancing or something?
I kinda like the idea of hand to hand combat, but I think Garrett should suck at it. By that I mean that combat should be focused on Garrett pushing and stunning guards rather than taking them out, to create an opening through which he can run. Essentially the ability to knock guards back. I like that pickpocketing isn't instant but don't like the loading bar that appears.
The HUD is probably mostly optional. Also I'm hoping XP is only used for focus powers, meaning not using focus neatly removes both from the game.
Starker on 11/6/2013 at 16:19
Quote Posted by fett
Though I agree - the xp and headshot bullshit I could do without. But I don't think either of these need be indicative of the entire design philosophy. They weren't for DX:HR.
You get XP for headshots. How is that not the antithesis to everything that was Thief? If I had suggested such a thing a few months earlier, people would have said I'm paranoid.
Oh, but we need mass appeal, you say. Exactly why is that? What is wrong with spending a relatively modest amount of money to make a game for less than a million people? The mentality that every AAA game must have COD levels of success is stupid and greedy and unrealistic.
fett on 11/6/2013 at 16:32
I agree with that Kickstarter, but in the current climate, I'm not sure what the answer is.
Quote Posted by Infinitron
The game that "appeals to both" is a utopian dream. Whenever a developer tells you he's making a game that will "appeal to a wider audience while retaining core values", he's lying to you. Something is always lost in the transition,
always.
I agree, but the compromise hasn't been all that awful in Dishonored or DX:HR. I think we're forgetting that more and more, devs are actually making games that avail themselves of multiple playstyles and doing it more successfully than before. Thief's hallmark is flexibility and player choice, and if they can work that in the direction of multiple play styles, I don't see the problem. It just depends on whether you want Thief to be exactly the same as it was 15 years ago, or are realistic enough to accept the fact that *nothing* is the way it was 15 years ago, and want to play what may be a really fun game. I was skeptical of DX but am so glad I gave it a chance because even though it's not exactly like the original, it's still a very fun game to play. It's well made, it's non-linear as much as the LGS/IR games were, and I don't care that it deviates in places because they were mostly improvements. Many will disagree, but that's my perspective. As long as I can turn the hand-holding off and steal everybody's shit without having to fight guards, I'm going to try it out.
Renault on 11/6/2013 at 16:36
Quote Posted by fett
The reigning opinion with most people on the T2X teams was that while we wanted to incorporate some new things from fan missions, most fan missions are ridiculously hard. There are either no or obscure hints, things hidden in unrelated hidey-holes, too many AI just for the hell of it, etc. IMO, the fan missions of late have gone off the deep end trying to be challenging to the point that most of them are simply not fun to play. When I got frustrated in the original games it was NEVER because of the design - it was always because of my own inability to approach the obstacle more creatively. That is a very fine, subtle line, but it exists and you recognize it when it's done properly.
While I'm pretty surprised that
you find most FMs overly difficult, it does makes sense for newer players (hope that didn't come out wrong). Most of the diehards here have been playing Thief for so long that we've basically "mastered" it (for lack of a better term). The original games aren't much of a challenge anymore, even to ghost. TDM is the ultimate extension of that - I'm a big fan, and have played almost every FM released, but I've quit many times out of frustration myself. There are things you can do in Thief that you just can't get away with in TDM.
Just curious - what's an example of a recent FM that you consider to be overly difficult? Trying to think - I guess some of the recent contest missions were a bit cryptic and/or far too dark at times.
Maybe everyone's perception here is just way off because we've been playing Thief so long. But I still think you can make a game easier/more accessible without the overdose of hand-holding created by all these on-screen indicators, markers, Focus, and VATS. All that stuff just seems like a case of lazy design. There's got to be a better way to do it.
Infinitron on 11/6/2013 at 16:41
Quote Posted by fett
I agree, but the compromise hasn't been all that awful in Dishonored or DX:HR.
Despite their shared pedigree, there are important differences between DX and Thief which make the former more suitable for "modern audiences". A poster on the RPGCodex said it well:
Quote:
Nope. I did like HR for what it was, but I didn't see any indication in it that the developers were able or willing to fully break away from "next-gen" trappings in order to make a Thief game. Deus Ex is very much a jack-of-all-trades game; stealth, FPS, smatterings of RPG and Adventure. Somehow, it worked; none of the elements in it were particularly "deep" in isolation, but they came together to make something much greater than the sum of its parts. HR juggled all of those elements as well, some better than others. The result was a disjointed product that managed to come out decent enough. Thief, on the other hand, is a very pure experience; they need to show dedication to a narrower, deeper gameplay style developed with a cohesive vision in mind if they're going to convince me. So far, they've done the opposite.
As for Dishonored, that was a new IP, so they didn't owe anybody anything. Arkane went their own way - good for them.
Nuth on 11/6/2013 at 17:14
Quote Posted by Starker
You get XP for headshots. How is that not the antithesis to everything that was Thief? If I had suggested such a thing a few months earlier, people would have said I'm paranoid.
They're finding ways to screw up Thief that I hadn't even dreamed they'd be dumb enough to include. After the Stephen Russell decision, I guess nothing should really be very surprising though.
