bikerdude on 24/8/2008 at 00:02
Quote Posted by Hiatus
* has similar issues in older DX (3-7) games (horribly slow fps in older DX games,
* and of course well-known lack/broken 16-bit dithering, resulting in games like T2 which rely on it looking terrible).
* how to: run DXCapsViewer, to a file (for both ATI/NV) and upload them, so we can compare them.
* I havent noticed any fps lag like I noticed on a 2900XT I had a while back
* The dithering issue is broken on the vanilla version but fine under DDfix
* here is a (
http://rapidshare.com/files/139622923/dxview.log.html) like to the file containing the while tree
biker
Hiatus on 24/8/2008 at 10:24
Quote:
T2 - Broken (v1.3.11-psychedelic colour's then crashes to desktop).
IMO there's hope it's fixable by Timeslip, because as I remember early ddfix 1.2 versions (betas) had identitcal issue (psych colors, then crash in-game after a few secs max) with various (older) ATI chips (including X1xxx), so Timeslip made a version which put some info in .log files (some kind of pseudo debug ver), and after seeing info from these log files from crashing machines (all ATI) he was able to fix the issue very fast, so 1.2 started to work fine with various ATI cards (check the big ddfix thread for posts from march I think with this issue for details, and how it was resolved).
But it looks like what was fixed back then on HD4xxx (at least) is broken again, hopefully Timeslip will be able to refix it, so it works with HD4xxx, too (if it's similar issue/cause like back then with older ATI chips). In the meantime please try other ddfix 1.2+ versions, like older 1.3.x (if you got them) and 1.2.7 (link is on Timeslip's site).
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... so you say you don't have have any fps drops (not lag) to say <10-20 fps in various places (esp. with particle effects visible in-game)? I mean with vanilla versions and ddfix 1.2+ (= D3D6 renderers in use; D3D9 renderer from 1.0-1.1 should be ok)? Have you tried in places from these screens (taken from 1st post in this thread: (
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33927065) ):
===
on a side note (after seeing your log file from DXCapsView): HD4xxx reports it supports 16-bit dithering in hardware (D3DPRASTERCAPS_DITHER Yes in HAL subtree): yeah, right (it simply lies as dithering support is completely broken, or rather removed from the chip die). Nice one ATI :-/. Wonder if Nvidia 8xxx+ report they support dithering in h/w, too..
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Quote:
Vanilla:
T1 - WORKS
T1G - Broken, fine in menu's then crashes once in-game.
... strange thing is vanilla T1 works fine with HD4xxx while vanilla T1G crashes - they are nearly the same thing. Another ATI f*ckup (took care of T1 but "forgot" about T1G)?
===
Quote:
Tested T2 with Mission X and I'm disappointed to say, that while the game is still quite playable there is some noticable lag and jitter. No major fps dropouts though and the odd minor stutter & freeze.
you mean with (using D3D9) ddfix 1.1.1? Is there similar issue (lag/stutter/jitter/freeze/whatever) with (ugly looking) vanilla T2 version, or is the issue ddfix 1.1.1 specific? No dramatic fps drops in vanilla T2 version on HD4xxx? ddfix 1.1.1 (1.0-1.1) is known to be (more or less minor) stutter/jitter/freeze prone because it does some additional periodical quite substantial data copying behind the scenes for some reason (don't remember what now) - perceivable hit depends on system used. It was removed in 1.2+ I think.
bikerdude on 24/8/2008 at 17:09
Quote Posted by Hiatus
* Have you tried in places from these screens (taken from 1st post in this thread: (
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33927065) ):
* ... strange thing is vanilla T1 works fine with HD4xxx while vanilla T1G crashes - they are nearly the same thing. Another ATI f*ckup (took care of T1 but "forgot" about T1G)?
* you mean with (using D3D9) ddfix 1.1.1? Is there similar issue (lag/stutter/jitter/freeze/whatever) with (ugly looking) vanilla T2 version, or is the issue ddfix 1.1.1 specific?
* No dramatic fps drops in vanilla T2 version on HD4xxx? ddfix 1.1.1 (1.0-1.1) is known to be (more or less minor) stutter/jitter/freeze prone
Ok i will test T2 as per the link on rage3d forum and with regard to T1/TG - yeah, I tested it 3 times with fresh installs and I'm as confuselled as you. With regard to the lag with 1.1.1 on OM missions, it was the widescreen patch. Run ddfix 1.1.1 on it own and its smooth on either OM or Mission X.
And done some more testing using Mission X as the benchmark and have figured out how to get DDfix 1.3.11 working..:weird: :grr: see 1st post.
Biker
Hiatus on 26/8/2008 at 05:31
biker:
1) which Catalyst version have you used - official 8.8, or sth else? Have you tried older finals/newer betas (whether it changes anything)?
2) what are you impressions re the card and its performance etc (compared to your previous card, 8800 GTX) - which newer games have you tried and what is your opinion about the card in general?
3) UseCompatibleZBuffer=1 is 16-bit Z/depth buffer, while UseCompatibleZBuffer=0 is (more precise) 24-bit one. I have no problem using either on X1xxx - wonder whether your problems with =0 on HD4xxx are ATI's fault, or ddfix's fault (could anyone with HD2xxx/HD3xxx check whether UseCompatibleZBuffer=0 works for him/her - and on which driver version)?
4) looking forward to your equivalent GTX280 tests re Thief compatibility - curious which card will turn out to be the winner in this regard (if any - it's rather a matter of which one sucks less badly attempting to "support" older titles - because it's a well-known fact by now that both Nvidia's and ATI's support for DX7- (= DX7 and lower) titles in general on their DX10 hardware is currently simply horrible/abysmal).
5) have you tried/are you going to retest HD4xxx in Vista? (current ATI Vista drivers are said to be much better than XP ones - because they receive much more attention/time from ATI).
6) so you are returning HD4xxx just now, or keep it for now?
bikerdude on 26/8/2008 at 09:06
Hiatus..
1. I didn't think of that, as I thought the 4800 series benefited from 8.8 this version, I assume i can only go back as far as 8.6 before I loose support for said card..?
2. Well I have played halflife Ep2, Oblivion and T3 all with settings at MAX and at 1680*1050 & 4xAA/16*Aniso and they were all smooth, my 8800 could manage 1680*1050 & 2xAA/8xAniso with some settings turned down a bit - and I would still get the odd minor stutter. But as you may have seen on my other thread, I had to edit the bios to correct the low fan speed issue(PowerColour sent it out with the fan set at 2% at idle - cretins) - which is a common issue on 4870's. The build quality is Ok, the heatsink/fan are cheap but do the job. With the edited bios my fan speed/temps 6/12% 42/60c
3. I don't wee why note - its a simple edit to the ddfix.ini file. But that said I still haven't testing the Thief in vanilla mode on those other OM's mentioned on rage3d, to see if I get FPS dropout.
4. I will have both cards at the same time, for this week only so I can decide which one I'm going to keep. I really really want to go ATi, because I don't want to see them disappear from the market - but Thief is a strict master, if its sufficiently broken on one card over the other that will influence my decision.
5. I will test both cards in Xp and Vista - it could be that the handful of issues I had in Xp wont be present in Vista, but I wont hold my breath - vista being vista after all.
6. see reply 4. :cheeky:
biker
Hiatus on 27/8/2008 at 16:46
ad2) what about general loudness of the card (after bios edit) both in idle/under load, compared with 8800? which one is louder?
also, what is max temp VRM reach under load?
ad3) well, it should/used to work in both cases, including more precise 24-bit depth buffer. ATI must have changed/broken sth in HD4xxx (or just HD2xxx+) itself, or drivers mosr likely which in turned has broken UseCompatibleZBuffer=0 in ddfix (no big deal but still.. next time they may break UseCompatibleZBuffer=1, and then what?)
bikerdude on 27/8/2008 at 17:37
Quote Posted by Hiatus
ad2)
* what about general loudness of the card (after bios edit) both in idle/under load, compared with 8800? which one is louder?
* also, what is max temp VRM reach under load?
I have an Antec 900 case, so the fans in that on low make about 20-30dba of noise, the PowerColour PCS+ HD4870 is as follows
6% - cant hear it over the case fans.. - 2D work, internet etc
12% - just about hear a "another" noise
30% - noticeable, louder than the case fans. -
the power colour 4870 never gets louder than this40% - this is as loud as I am happy with under 3D mode
50-100% - as loud as my hair dryer.
The 8800 GTX/ultra with OEM cooler was as follows
30% - just about hear a "another" noise - 2D work, internet etc
40% - noticeable, slightly louder than case fans.
60% - this is as loud as I am happy with under 3D mode -
I had a modded bios so under 3D mode it never went louder than this.60-100% - as loud as my hair dryer.
I added a custom cooler later to my 8800Ultra (3xfan arctic cooling xtreme) this was inaudable below 60% and the temps were 40/60c idle/load
The VRM's on the HD4870 idle at around 50c and under 3d mode its 20c above that - but I my case run cool, my temps are 20-30c idle depending on room temp. And also don't for get the HD4870 I have has a custom cooler.
biker
Hiatus on 27/8/2008 at 17:47
biker
ok but the point is: how fast/how often and for how long do both cards reach their (unbearable) "hair dryer" level (50-100% ATI, 60-100% NV) under demanding 3D mode (like Crysis or something comparably demanding - modern 3D games)? Out of curiosity: which mode is activated/used most often while playing Thief with ddfix for a few hours (say playing Mission X) in both cases - does is ever switch to "hair dryer" level?
also, do they typically idle (normal 2D like web surfing) in their "cant hear it over the case fans" or anything higher?
bikerdude on 29/8/2008 at 22:41
Ok.......
Updated test results with both XpSp3 and VistaSp1, but your not gonna like it...:erm:
biker
KoHaN69 on 21/10/2008 at 22:47
as an owner of both hd3870 and hd4850, i concur biker's results.
the performance hit is HUGE, we're talking under 10 fps in some places.
it's so bad that i now actually have 2 video cards in my computer, my 4850 for modern games and my old vanilla x800 just for thief :nono:
i started a thread at rage3d to deal with the issue, but no one seems to take legacy gaming seriously
(
http://www.rage3d.com/BOARD/showthread.php?t=33927065)
