Beleg Cúthalion on 4/8/2014 at 13:01
As promised, here is a thread to concentrate our efforts to replace the hand-drawn maps of TDS and add briefing videos. After all, the maps were makeshift solutions:
Quote Posted by Krypt
By the way the Docks, Clocktower, and Stonemarket2 maps were originally drawn by me. All the designers just did a quick rough version of the handdrawn maps, and the artists just added the "old paper" effect and some icons. I should have gotten an art credit! :laff:
The briefing videos of which we have a (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr1NWSLHgvU) few (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHnh1f-3Xe8) prototypes will probably be included via trigger scripts. Since you start most missions by frobbing a glyph, this shouldn't be a problem. The briefing voice-over for Garrett would then be deleted, only the text remaining. I'd suggest a few rules for those wishing to work on the videos:
1. Only Thief (3?)-related material. I have a few rarely-used images from the game guides that could be put in, if required.
2. Content from Thief 3 Gold seems feasible, that means re-worked screenshots from the new maps can be provided, from out of T3Ed if e.g. a aerial view is needed. Same goes for the hand-drawn maps once we have them.
3. No language-specific content. All maps are labelled with differently-translated schema texts, so showing e.g. a map with words only works if the translations don't differ.
Hand-drawn MapsI will provide TDS's vanilla background image soon as well as some T3Ed map shots or aerial views. The maps had different flavours in T1/2 and I think we should capture that for T3G, too. The maps can have a stylistic variety much more than the briefing videos, I'd wager. As written above, they have labels with text from the different localisations. This texts, its size and position can be adjusted, but in any case no words should appear on the map images themselves. I'll report back soon.
snobel on 4/8/2014 at 13:49
Which aspect ratio should the briefing videos have? Personally I'd prefer 16:9 as a compromise between the 4:3 aspect of the classic briefings and the 2.34 aspect of the existing T3 cutscenes. (Also, 16:9 is optimal for modern screens.)
Beleg Cúthalion on 5/8/2014 at 05:42
I think I agree on the proposed aspect ratio. By introducing a wholly new video category into the game, we don't have a lot of restrictions either. I currently wonder whether or not we should remake all the ugly 3D renders in the traditional style. :p
I've zipped up all the original maps (
http://www.jaybmusic.net/Eidos/Thief3Gold/T3G_HDmaps.7z) in this archive. To prevent major quality losses I've used png as a format (don't know if it really helps much, but anyway). The thing is, there is a blank map file provided but it is slightly darker and more yellowish than the background of the maps used in the game. That's why I'd ask one of you to stitch together a second base image from the several map files. It should be a copypasta thing since the maps have their lines in different places. I have also included the dds file of the red hand mark which is used to mark fences and shops on the City section maps. If the new base is provided (try to stay in png for now, at least it's re-convertible to dds and works in the game as I've just checked), we can split up the tasks of designing new ones.
I'll provide the labels for the maps later, it'll probably need screenshots from the game to see where they are placed. The names can be found in the MapRooms.sch file in TDS\CONTENT\T3\Books\English\String_Tags\... However, there is no clear indication to which mission/map they belong (unless of course you know them by heart).
Edit: I forgot the important part: the images are 1024pix square because they are treated as textures. Before manipulation, they should be scaled up to a 4:3 aspect ratio (preferably with 1024 being the vertical size so we don't shrink it only to expand it again later) and than scaled back to their original distorted size. The game takes care of restoring it.
Muzman on 5/8/2014 at 06:46
The fun part will be deciding on the final resolution. There could probably be several sets I suppose, depending on what download/server load people are willing to put up with.
If I read it right the current assumed plan is to just get artists to work on a single briefing and then video it up themselves if they can.
Depending on who gets involved however, some sort of division of labour is possible. That way artists with no video skills can get involved and vice versa; art elements can be assigned across briefings etc.
My instinct would be to do a break down of each briefing into a sort of script or thumbnail series, like they do with comics. Then you get a list of what needs doing, what ideas people can throw in and also helps them not being too similar to each other (even though they follow a fairly consistent formula).
Beleg Cúthalion on 5/8/2014 at 07:14
My naïve initial idea would have been that we give the whole videos to several artists so they can focus on a single piece. Of course they would be evaluated and given suggestions during the process with the possibility to "outsource" certain elements (like "I need a photoshopped version of image xy so that one can see yz, anyone?"). Making a central guideline and storyboards would be more organized but I admit I wouldn't have any experience with that kind of coordination. Would someone else opt for the more coordinated approach?
By the way, briefing video resolution could be more or less like the original ones, I guess. The benefit of high-res videos for a ten year old game isn't that obvious to me. Plus, we spare ourselves the hassle of offering two versions. We can always put the HD versions on YouTube I guess.
snobel on 5/8/2014 at 20:00
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
The thing is, there is a blank map file provided but it is slightly darker and more yellowish than the background of the maps used in the game. That's why I'd ask one of you to stitch together a second base image from the several map files. It should be a copypasta thing since the maps have their lines in different places.
I did that back when I de-portalized the maps - the 512 pix version is in the T3G FM in dds format.
Back then I tried scaling up the maps to 1024x1024 using an 'intelligent' scaler (nnedi3 avisynth filter) but deemed it not enough of an improvement. Anyway, might as well throw it out there - the portal-less maps in both 512 and 1024 pix png format are (
https://copy.com/UbpRpDAoCqvs81SA) here (1:1 format), or (
https://copy.com/GAiQIyfjO9lhgNI0) here (4:3 format). The clean background is included.
About the videos:
* The original cutscenes are 640x272, the menu 640x480. So 854x480 or 640x360 (both 16:9) would be similar to the original formats but not over-the-top quality. It's of course still a good idea to do the work in HD if possible, to have some headroom.
* The original cutscenes are 29.97 fps, but is there any reason not to have straight 30 fps these days?
At some point I'm going to attempt porting the ffmpeg stuff from NewDark to T3 - if it can be done it would mean H.264 (or H.265!) support, i.e. smaller file size and/or better quality than the bink format. It's probably not happening for the first version though. So video artists, please hold on to your source files, an update may be needed later...
Judith on 6/8/2014 at 20:52
Original cutscenes are awfully small, so anything in 720p would be appreciated. Like 1280 x 720 for 16:9 and 960 x 720 for 4:3.
H.264 encoder is pretty good, but latest version of Bink compressor is also quite decent, you just need to adjust the data rate (guide (
http://www.radgametools.com/binkhcwb.htm) here). H.264 tends to produce "softer" results with better compression. Bink is sharper, but sometimes it is harder to avoid artifacts. And, you don't really need 30 FPS for what is basically a set of panned images. Thief 1 & 2 used 15 FPS, AFAIR. I'd switch to 24-25 FPS for a bit smoother results.
Muzman on 6/8/2014 at 21:49
I'd advocate a larger finish size too. 480 being stretched to 1080 is a bit too much for it. In a short while people will be sporting much larger screens pretty regularly too.
720 would be a decent enough option. Distro size is a concern. But that seems to be getting less troublesome these days. It could be my decadent western bias though.
I suppose the problem is the resolution contrast with the existing videos, potentially. But it might work. They're quite different looking.
If we work to high res all this can be sorted out later though.
I'm down with the idea of Dan Thronerising the horrid 3d cutscenes too. But probably best to leave that as a later thing as well.
I'll scribble up some of those "script" things I'm taking about when I get a minute and see if they seem useful.
Beleg Cúthalion on 7/8/2014 at 05:48
From what I've heard, people think Judith's Inn mission briefing video is quite good. For a start, could we take it as an example and discuss some features of it, both technically and stylistically? I'd have a few things: I like the mainly T3 music and think we should stick to T3 resources as much as possible. I could get the Child of Karras to provide some extra music (those who played (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141701) my FM know the two ambient music pieces and the one from the (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGjfyvrYPZA) briefing), especially if we need something more industrial. T3 resources means I wouldn't take video clips from T1/2 either. The old videos used e.g. "overdrawn" screenshots as well, so maybe the artists here (e.g. Dominus) can appreciate that they don't have to draw a whole new image for a panning shot but only "decorate" an existing one. Or am I wrong?
Another thing I was thinking about is the arrangement of the images: Making one fitting every section of Garrett's voice over is probably a bit cheap. I wonder if we can steal a bit from the Witcher 1 flashback scenes where they focussed on different parts of one bigger painting and zoomed out to show the whole at the end. I believe this could avoid the possible hectic of throwing in a new image every ten seconds. For the Inn briefing I could image an image (former screenshot) of Lord Julian and the cook sitting at the fireplace with a guard nearby, so all the parts with "Lord Julian", the "velvet bag" and the "Guards at the Inn" could be taken from different sections of a larger artwork.
Heck, this makes me remember I promised to turn it into a proper mission. And I had hoped for less work...:p
Edit: I just wondered what resolution would be best for the maps. If 1024 square works just as good, we could offer more detail for the map artists.
snobel on 8/8/2014 at 10:57
Quote Posted by Muzman
I suppose the problem is the resolution contrast with the existing videos, potentially. But it might work. They're quite different looking.
If we work to high res all this can be sorted out later though.
That's my main concern, that too-good quality would make the original stuff look crappy by comparison. But yes, HD can always be downgraded.
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
From what I've heard, people think Judith's Inn mission briefing video is quite good.
Yes, it is. (Here's the (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oorc2XpJ0gc) link again btw.)
Quote:
Heck, this makes me remember I promised to turn it into a proper mission.
Go on, then... :p:)
Quote:
Edit: I just wondered what resolution would be best for the maps. If 1024 square works just as good, we could offer more detail for the map artists.
1024 works fine. Here's the (
https://copy.com/PYI4tajVrFfpxYQ4) original City map and the (
https://copy.com/BTx9dRDcTWfYi6Yd) upscaled version on the game's Gear screen at 1920x1200. Diagonal lines do look smoother. A map drawn at high res from scratch should look even better of course.
A couple of map observations:
* Maps appear smaller in-game than when accessed through the Gear screen. Would be nice to have that fixed
* Apparently the map outline is determined by an internal mask, not texture transparency. Here's what an (
https://copy.com/AE8gflZ9rcolyZMQ) all-white square texture looks like in-game
