CheeseshireCat on 26/4/2010 at 15:36
I have to absolutely agree with Fidcal and Unkillable Cat. The Mission 1 is misnamed. It should have been "Exercise in frustration".
Its absolutely idiotic (to say the least) "don't leave the *ABSENT* path" restriction, useless map and zero if not negative clues as to following it, the bugs and objectives which make it only possible to complete by knowing *NUMEROUS* engine bugs/"features" or doing totally unusual stuff, and negative rewards would make only serial masochists not trash it... Zontik, sorry if it sounds too harsh, but this is an A+ example of how to NOT make a game. The idea is pretty good, but execution...
To mention just the most glaring ones (and I don't really see a reason to spoiler bracket them):
* The camvator getting stuck if you approach the werewolf crouched. Epic fail for builder AND testers -- who in their right mind would run up to a monster? And since it was 100% repeateable bug, I'd have trashed the mission if I didn't know what to look for at the forum. Now, imagine a player who doesn't know that that's called "camvator" trying to search for a solution? How many people know that the reason for getting stuck might be being crouched?
* The same camvator sequence instead of following the werewolf dumps the player in the waterfall -- for no apparent reason whatsoever, and it being not even clear (more like, 100% impossible) that the camvator was the player following the werewolf, as it in some places *FLIES* over the chasms.
* The "chop the tree down" without any hint to that at all. With the tree also wasting arrows. If it had some notches on the trunk already, or there was a different way to fall it, it could have been fine.
* The archer near the back door spotting and starting an alert if once you exit the cave, you spend as much as a couple seconds to look at the ledges below, not take a mad dash blindly, combined with two sets of those, one of which triggers the "left the path" objective fail.
* The guard booth near turnpike having a button that triggers the alarm, not raises said turnpike, and has no hint as for its purpose.
* The back door being hard enough to reach, and being not even just a dead end, but not openable at all, even after getting a key, but triggering an alarm, too.
* The path futher beyond the back door being a dud, too, and even almost impossible to return from.
* Opening the front gate requiring use of not one, but at least two, obscure "features". Come on, how many players even *KNEW* it is possible to shoot from the ladder? Or that cameras go into slow turning mode when you hide behind an obstacle at the different side? Not to mention the complexity of the lock there.
PotatoGuy on 26/4/2010 at 20:05
Quote Posted by CheeseshireCat
* The camvator getting stuck if you approach the werewolf crouched. Epic fail for builder AND testers -- who in their right mind would run up to a monster? And since it was 100% repeateable bug, I'd have trashed the mission if I didn't know what to look for at the forum. Now, imagine a player who doesn't know that that's called "camvator" trying to search for a solution? How many people know that the reason for getting stuck might be being crouched?
That's weird - while testing it I never had that problem, and I crouched multiple times.
Quote Posted by CheeseshireCat
* The same camvator sequence instead of following the werewolf dumps the player in the waterfall -- for no apparent reason whatsoever, and it being not even clear (more like, 100% impossible) that the camvator was the player following the werewolf, as it in some places *FLIES* over the chasms.
I always considered that as 'an unique way of fastforwarding a moment'. Zontik wanted to include the werewolf, but was probably afraid that people would try to attack it, or do other things to crash the storyline. I admit it's a bit odd - but I never found anything really wrong with it, when imagining Garrett just runs after the werewolf.
Quote Posted by CheeseshireCat
* The "chop the tree down" without any hint to that at all. With the tree also wasting arrows. If it had some notches on the trunk already, or there was a different way to fall it, it could have been fine.
Actually, there is a hint on at least Allegro, a broken sword next to the tree. This is just a typical Zontik moment - be inventive and don't think 'what would be done in a Thief FM?' Zontik always makes original puzzle solutions.
sexypat on 26/4/2010 at 20:07
OK
I have the potion , the 3 music sheets , the code worked but Angers stick does'nt do anything to the record on the gramophone !what am i missing ?
:sly:
nightshifter on 26/4/2010 at 20:15
there is a button on the left side of the gramophone, you have to use ager's stick on that
CheeseshireCat on 26/4/2010 at 21:23
Quote Posted by PotatoGuy
That's weird - while testing it I never had that problem, and I crouched multiple times.
100% repeatable, and apparently, Fidcal had it happen, too.
Quote Posted by PotatoGuy
I always considered that as 'an unique way of fastforwarding a moment'. Zontik wanted to include the werewolf, but was probably afraid that people would try to attack it, or do other things to crash the storyline. I admit it's a bit odd - but I never found anything really wrong with it, when imagining Garrett just runs after the werewolf.
Um. Make it run faster than the player or something? But who in their right mind would -- assuming they were chasing the creature -- dash a different way, plunging into the waterfall? Now add the previous "don't stray from the path" limitation and it would make not just zero, but negative sense. If it was, for example, player tripping on something like a tripwire set there or the like, it would have at least been meaningful. As is... About as much sense as in a guard appearing right behind you in the empty room when you frob a readable in one particular mission.
Quote Posted by PotatoGuy
Actually, there is a hint on at least Allegro, a broken sword next to the tree. This is just a typical Zontik moment - be inventive and don't think 'what would be done in a Thief FM?' Zontik always makes original puzzle solutions.
Didn't try allegro, and when the sword (looking silver) is quite away from the tree, in the house with the GK2 book... You don't think it's for the tree, so I count that as a mislead, not a hint.
As for inventive... Not everything inventive makes sense. One TDS has an *objective* a book dropped among ~50 other books. Inventive? Sure. Good idea? No way. Having a bird nest you need to shoot off the top of one of the trees to achieve something (like get a key) would be pretty inventive, too. But without the hints it would also be absolutely unreasonable -- as quite a lot of people would not think of it, exactly because this is a Thief 2 FM, and there are specific limitations (usually) imposed by the engine. If you find a way to get around them, cool, but expecting players know you did is quite unfair.
PotatoGuy on 26/4/2010 at 21:46
Quote Posted by CheeseshireCat
But without the hints it would also be absolutely unreasonable -- as quite a lot of people would not think of it, exactly because this is a Thief 2 FM, and there are specific limitations (usually) imposed by the engine. If you find a way to get around them, cool, but expecting players know you did is quite unfair.
I guess that's the one of the major points in this FM, and where a lot of people will disagree with each other - when I know I'm playing a mission by someone as Zontik I feel stupid for not thinking 'outside the box' enough. Yes, maybe we have played too many FMs to do that, but in my opinion it's good that Zontik makes us try things we wouldn't do normally - since it seems DromEd can do more and more after every released FM.
WhiteFantom on 26/4/2010 at 21:49
Quote Posted by CheeseshireCat
As for inventive... Not everything inventive makes sense. One TDS has an *objective* a book dropped among ~50 other books. Inventive? Sure. Good idea? No way. Having a bird nest you need to shoot off the top of one of the trees to achieve something (like get a key) would be pretty inventive, too. But without the hints it would also be absolutely unreasonable -- as quite a lot of people would not think of it, exactly because this is a Thief 2 FM, and there are specific limitations (usually) imposed by the engine. If you find a way to get around them, cool, but expecting players know you did is quite unfair.
I also thought it was inventive, and I didn't have any trouble coming to the conclusion of what needed to be done to the tree. The tree seemed to be placed in a way that drew obvious attention to it, so I knew the player was expected to do
something with it, and after finding nothing frobbable about it, I got out the sword to see if bashing it would get it out of the way. I wasn't actually trying to chop it down and make a bridge to cross the gap, I was mostly just trying to get it out of the way so I had room to jump. I didn't expect to create a log bridge, but it only took me about 30 seconds from first encountering the tree to knocking it down and moving on.
I really think that people who play a lot of adventure games probably have a better experience with this mission than people who don't, because Zontik definitely took more of an adventure game direction with the puzzles and obstacles in this FM. If you're an adventure game addict (like I am), the type of thinking Zontik expected from the player is probably automatic, but if you don't play those kinds of games much and are thinking more in a strictly Thief vein, I could see how you might have problems figuring out what Zontik expected you to do.
--Jennifer
Briareos H on 26/4/2010 at 21:57
Yeah that's probably the best way to put it. Play this FM like you would play an adventure game or die. No one would throw a fit over Monkey Island 2 because you have to use jojo the monkey with the pump.
As for the tree, I didn't even think about it - it seemed completely obvious to me. What amazed me at that time was the amount of interaction it would mean for the rest of the FM and I can say I got what I wanted.
clearing on 27/4/2010 at 03:49
CheeseshireCat, this mission demands a different kind of logic than most other FMs.
CheeseshireCat on 27/4/2010 at 04:33
Quote Posted by Briareos H
Yeah that's probably the best way to put it. Play this FM like you would play an adventure game or die. No one would throw a fit over Monkey Island 2 because you have to use jojo the monkey with the pump.
As for the tree, I didn't even think about it - it seemed completely obvious to me. What amazed me at that time was the amount of interaction it would mean for the rest of the FM and I can say I got what I wanted.
I figured that -- after all, the tree wasn't as bad as the lever. After all, it's a known fact it's impossible to use weapons in Thief on the ladders and in water starting at some depth. So I spent like half an hour trying to get that lever by blindly shooting arrows at a ballistic arc, which resulted in nothing. After that, I went here to the forum, and found the "wiggle around on the wine" suggestion. Didn't work for me, so I found a different approach -- draw on the ground, then climb and shoot -- you can do it if you are quick enough...
As for MI comparison... Nope, it's more like if you had to type a command as in early Sierra quests in the middle of MI2 all of a sudden -- and without any clue to do that.
Again, reminded me of another mission where you had to shoot a rope arrow up from water, with only a tiny spot being just a little bit more shallow than the rest -- that it even exists was pretty un-obvious...
