Thief 1/2 & SShock 2: DDFix and Enhanced Resolution Patch - discussion - by bikerdude
d'Spair on 19/3/2008 at 21:17
oh by the way
i'm playing thief 1 at 1280x1024 (no ddfix), and while Garrett carries a body, the appropriate icon of a player carrying a body moves a little bit from the bottom-center of the screen to the left
is that the case with 1280x1024?
Hiatus on 19/3/2008 at 21:32
I remember I ran vanilla TG @1600x1200 no problem (don't remember if there were some bugs/quirks related to running at that unofficial/unsupported res). And that was on some ancient nVidia card. 1280x1024 ran, too. Too bad 1280x960 doesn't run at all :(.
@Timeslip:
any chance your patch could somehow enable/unblock 1280x960 res in T2/T1/SS2? Like trick the games into thinking they can render in that res/add it to display modes etc (by means of your .dll)? And, could you include the source code for latest ver of ddfix (1.2.5 as of writing) in the download package, please?
Nameless Voice on 19/3/2008 at 21:40
Oh, I guess I was wrong. I thought only Thief 2 and SS2 could be forced to go higher than their given resolutions, and that Thief 1 couldn't. I must have been thinking of something else. :sweat:
sNeaksieGarrett on 20/3/2008 at 02:02
Everything is not as it seems.
Quote Posted by Bikerdude
......I keep saying this, but no one is listening, T1 and Tg dont need to be DDfix'd in order to run/look properly on 8600/8800 or 2900/3800 cards... There is no significant visual improvment, because T1/TG dosent have as much details in the shadows as T2 etc.
I am fully aware of that.... But you fail to realize that I only did it because Hiatus said the shadows look better with ddfix. Plus, it runs thief in 32-bit (or does it? I honestly can't tell a difference between 16-bit thief and 32-bit maybe cuz thief is so dark) I wanted to test it out.
Quote Posted by EvaUnit02
Sorry, but you're wrong. The Dark engine games won't run under XP, period, on Nvidia cards released from November 2007 onwards, without DDfix.
Really? that is unfortunate.:(
wait a minute....
Quote Posted by Bikerdude
Ive tested
vanilla(w/dualcore fix)T1/TG on my 8800 card on various drivers.
According to biker, eva, you are wrong. Although we have to ask what the system specs are. (are you running xp biker? or vista?):confused:
@vasmarok: Interesting, sounds like it IS a driver issue.:(
Quote Posted by EvaUnit02
Sneaksie, try downloading the latest DirectX redistributable. DirectX is quietly updated every three months or so, installing the latest version can more often than not fix problematic games.
Well, I have actually. I don't think its directx's fault anymore. Or rather, if it is, I don't think updating directx is going to help anything here. Actually, I installed an older redist come to think of it.
smithpd on 20/3/2008 at 05:35
Until today I have been siding with bikerdude concerning the visual appearance of T1 with and without DDFIX. Using an Nvidia 7950 GT, until today I have never been able to see any difference in T1 rendering when comparing the DDFIX'ed and the original T1. That has changed, and so has my opinion. The answer to the riddle is that it depends on which scene you look at. Read on.
Hiatus's screen shots in a dark alcove showed me that there was something significant going on. The differences in rendering quality with 32 bits were dramatic. Then I looked at Hiatus's light shot down the hallway of The Sword. At first I could see no difference. Then I loaded both 16 and 32 bit versions into Hypersnap and did a 400% zoom, side by side, into the same area. Sure enough, I see patches of uniform color in the 16 bit mode, but continuous, smooth color variation in the 32 bit mode. The 32 bit DDFIX rendering is obviously superior in Hiatus's screen shots, whereas in the bright light from a distance it was not too noticeable.
Given that I had never seen this before, I then re-checked my own screen shots to be sure. I began at the exit hallway of Bafford's (the only save game I keep for Bafford's). Again, I ran it with and without DDFIX and created the screen shots in Hypersnap. I could see a slight difference in some brightness setting, maybe gamma, but not much. DDFIX was a little darker or more muted. I don't know why that is the case. Regardless, the rendering pattern looked exactly the same, pixel for pixel, in the 16 bit and 32 bit versons! In the Bafford scene I was looking at, the 32 bit rendering is no longer smooth with a wider color range. The rendering is 16 bit, with or without DDFIX.
Thinking it might be the version of DDFIX, I upgraded to from 1.2.4 to 1.2.5, and that made no difference other than the speed of the screen shot, which is great now. Thanks, Timeslip. :)
So then I loaded up The Sword and went to the same (or similar) hallway as Hiatus did. Sure enough, I can see the same difference in The Sword that is shown in Hiatus's hallway screen shot. 16 bit is pixellated and patchy, and 32 bit (DDFIX) is smooth. The answer can only be that there is some difference in the textures used in The Sword vs. the textures used in Bafford's. The reason why I, and probably bikerdude, have heretofore thought that DDFIX made no difference is that we are using Bafford's 16 bit textures to test it.
So, DDFIX really does make difference in T1! :D You just have to find the right test case. Sorry for doubting you, Hiatus.
As to why there is a difference in DDFIX with some textures, here is my theory.
Evidently some (or most?) textures in T1 are intrinsically 16 bit color. When you try to display the 16 bit textures with a 32 bit renderer such as DDFIX, it simply displays the 16 bit colors that were requested. The extra colors available in the renderer are wasted. On the other hand, some textures in T1 (e.g., in The Sword) are intrinsically 32 bit. If these are rendered using the original T1, the 32 bit color selections are rounded, or allocated, to fit into the 16 bit color range available in the T1 renderer. T1 has no dithering, so that is as far as it goes. You get 16 bit blotches and no dither patterns.
As for T2 rendering, it has almost the same thing but with one addition: T2 expected dithering to be used to render 32 bit colors using a 16 bit renderer. T2 calls a DX6 function to do the dithering. If the original T2 selected a 32 bit texture to render, it would apply dithering and fake the colors with a dot pattern. So, from a distance, you see the correct color, only it has dots if you zoom in close. Then, along came Nvidia's crappy drivers for the 8000 series cards, which disabled the dithering altogether that T2 was requesting. This made the original T2 look like T1 - a 16 bit nearest-color method. Only T2 looked like crap because, unlike T1, the 32 bit textures were not designed to display nicely in 16 bits. Or maybe the color allocation process in T2 is different. Either way, without the requested dithering, T2 looked like crap. Finally, along comes DDFIX, which bypasses dithering altogether and renders in true 32 bit. With that, 32 bit textures in T2 are correctly rendered, for the first time, with an exact color applied to each pixel.
Does that make sense? Or not? Your comments are welcome. :)
MH.TheFreak on 20/3/2008 at 10:14
About the fog problem with newer GeForce cards: Maybe someone should try a tweaker program to enable the various fog flags (w-fog, z-fog, I'm not sure)...
Or is Vista the reason? (Like the ATI cards, where fog disappears when goes into the menu, reading books, etc.)
EvaUnit02 on 20/3/2008 at 11:53
Quote Posted by sNeaksieGarrett
According to biker, eva, you are wrong. Although we have to ask what the system specs are. (are you running xp biker? or vista?):confused:
Apparently you need to do your homework and/or have your vision checked.
Quote Posted by EvaUnit02
Sorry, but you're wrong. The Dark engine games won't run under XP, period, on Nvidia cards released
from November 2007 onwards, without DDfix.
Biker is using a 8800GTX, based on the G80 chipset, that was released in
November 2006.The last Nvidia officially released XP drivers that had full support for the vanilla Dark engine games were v163.75 and 163.76, released in October 2007. Neither of drivers support any newer Nvidia cards - the 8800GT, 8800GS, 8800GTS G92, 9600GT...
EDIT: BWHAHAHA, vanilla T1:TDP/TG Trial both work fine with 169.44. Vanilla SS2/T2 still refuse to run, period. So yes, Biker is correct in regards to T1.
bikerdude on 20/3/2008 at 12:41
Quote Posted by sNeaksieGarrett
According to biker, eva, you are wrong. Although we have to ask what the system specs are. (are you running xp biker? or vista?)
Apparently you need to do your homework and/or have your vision checked....
To clarify, See below...
Quote Posted by EvaUnit02
Sorry, but you're wrong. The Dark engine games won't run under XP, period, on Nvidia cards released from November 2007 onwards, without DDfix. Although 8800GT owners running XP32 can use the leaked beta driver, Forceware v167.76 - but it's an unoptimised POS with dreadful performance.
I have tested both a 8800GTX/Ultra and HD 2900 under XP and Vista, As agreed by everyone T1/G works under both of the above series of cards under both operating systems, driver versions not with standing. I have resently tested T1/G & T2 under 169.44 on my 8800Ultra w/DDfix and they both work.
And since this thread was started and as you have rightly pointed out the very latested cards 8800GT/S (G92) and 3850/70/X2 in conjunction with the latest drivers(F-ware 174.xx & Cat 8.3) have had limited success, but for the most part T1/G works on these cards aswell.
As per smithy's post above I agree T1/G looks better with ddfix, but what I have been saying is that you dont need to install ddfix to play T1/G - in fact some people have been stated (me included) that after DDfix has been applied T1/G crashed or exhibits other serious problems.
Quote Posted by EvaUnit02
The last Nvidia officially released XP drivers that had full support for the vanilla Dark engine games were v163.75 and 163.76, released in October 2007. Neither of drivers support any newer Nvidia cards - the 8800GT, 8800GS, 8800GTS G92, 9600GT...
I concure, the above is 100% correct.
biker
Hiatus on 20/3/2008 at 14:02
Q: does vanilla T1/TG have stars on modern nVidia cards/drivers (i.e. in Bafford)? Can't check it myself as I'm on ATI now.
Quote Posted by Bikerdude
in fact some people have been stated (me included) that after DDfix has been applied T1/G crashed or exhibits other serious problems.
that's a bit unfortunate and it would be great if Timeslip managed to reproduce (can be hard as he doesn't own T1/TG copy if I'm not mistaken) or otherwise work out the cause of this crash bug on exit in T1/TG and fix it. I don't have this crash bug on ATI and some don't have it on nVidia so it seems to be maybe driver ver (or graphics chipset) dependant (?). BTW what other "serious problems" do you mean/are aware of?
Quote Posted by MH.TheFreak
Or is Vista the reason? (Like the ATI cards, where fog disappears when goes into the menu, reading books, etc.)
I don't experience disappearing fog on this combo: XPSP2/X19xx/Cat 8.3. Again, maybe it's OS (Vista?)/driver ver or chipset used (for example, HD2xxx/HD3xxx only?) specific?
Quote Posted by smithpd
Hiatus's screen shots in a dark alcove showed me that there was something significant going on. The differences in rendering quality with 32 bits were dramatic. Then I looked at Hiatus's light shot down the hallway of The Sword. At first I could see no difference. Then I loaded both 16 and 32 bit versions into Hypersnap and did a 400% zoom, side by side, into the same area.
That dark alcove is from Bonehoard, BTW. (Let me know if you want TG savegame from this exact place in case you want to check it out in-game for yourself w/o having to re-beat the level to get to this place). Because Imageshack may scale down the images it displays, good way to compare them is to d/l them to local disk, put in same dir, and then load/view them in some fast graphics viewer like Irfanview in full screen mode (looking at/concenrating on some chosen image fragment and quickly flipping between the image with keyboard shortcuts noting the difference if exists). That's how I do it.
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
Both Thief 1 and Thief 2 use exclusively* 256-colour textures.
yet they benefit (in varying degrees, depending on scene) from 32-bit render target provided by ddfix, and that is what counts for me, technicalies (in themselves interesting for some) aside (as to "what and why" etc) :). BTW NV, do you prefer vanilla T2 rendering (with proper dithering like on ATI card up to X1xxx) or 32-bit dithering-less rendering provided by ddfix (just curious)?
