Thief13x on 31/8/2008 at 17:45
Quote Posted by Starrfall
And if it is enough I still don't see what the problem is with her being temporarily discouraged from working - we all can probably survive without her contributions for a few months
multiply this by every American in her situation and suddenly things look a little bigger. Suddenly it's more beneficial to not contribute than to contribute. Suddenly I'm signing papers to become an officer in the military rather than to enter the clusterfuck we nickname 'private industry' simply because even if I try to earn a salary large enough to send a few kids to college in 2030, I would have been little worse off making the salary I did this summer.
Starrfall on 31/8/2008 at 17:54
That scenario is as ridiculous as if I were to point at pro-lifers and say "if they have their way all women would be forced to bear one child per year for as long as they are fertile."
Thief13x on 31/8/2008 at 17:58
this is no slippery slope argument, it's simple statistics! what part of 60+% to taxes doesn't make sense? Hell, I was only being taxed 32 this summer
Starrfall on 31/8/2008 at 18:02
Who's getting 60? His mother is apparently facing 45% at most, which means 45% on only part of her total income if that's a bracket and not a total. Never mind that most people can't dream of a severance package that generous so applying it to "every american in her situation" probably means about three people. (Exaggerating but you get the idea)
And do you expect a tax refund? (I'm wondering what your actual rate will turn out to be.)
Thief13x on 31/8/2008 at 18:09
Quote Posted by Starrfall
Who's getting 60? His mother is apparently facing 45% at most, which means 45% on
most of her total income
fixed
and you're right, 45% isn't so bad, I was referring to the amount I would hope to make to be able to afford a few college educations in 20 years because I don't want my children to have to face 100k+ in debt (like I am now) just to be able to be able to pay the bills (and taxes)
p.s. - no idea on the tax refund, but if it's anything like the ones I have been getting since I was 15...penny(ies?) on the dollar
heretic on 31/8/2008 at 18:10
In the US-
Any tax hike, regardless of the bracket, ends up as yet another nail in the coffin wherein lies the middle class. There are always ways for the wealthy to pass the buck down, either through price hikes on goods and services, or through the setup of tax shelters.
In effect, these penalties (and that is what they are) don't bring the bottom up, so much as bringing the middle down. This has been shown time and time again, but I guess we won't learn until we are all wards of the state.
There has been a lot of data showing how a flat-tax system could work, maybe it's time we give that a try.
Starrfall on 31/8/2008 at 18:19
Quote Posted by Thief13x
fixed
and you're right, 45% isn't so bad, I was referring to the amount I would hope to make to be able to afford a few college educations in 20 years because I don't want my children to have to face 100k+ in debt (like I am now) just to be able to be able to pay the bills (and taxes)
p.s. - no idea on the tax refund, but if it's anything like the ones I have been getting since I was 15...penny(ies?) on the dollar
My parents over time reached the current 28% bracket (going by wiki) and put 6 kids through undergraduate school (the vast majority of that pre-Bush cuts) while living a comfortable middle class lifestyle. House, two cars, dog, cat, etc. It sounds like you will be able to secure gainful post-graduation employment and you're smart enough not to turn into a total fuckup, so I think you'll be fine.
Quote Posted by heretic
There has been a lot of data showing how a flat-tax system could work, maybe it's time we give that a try.
What's your conception of a flat tax?
Also because it bears repeating (ahahaa):
Quote Posted by BEAR
That and they are trying SO hard to make people realize that they will
lower taxes for 95% of Americans.
edit: there's also (
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/business/31view.html?em) this although it obviously doesn't necessarily predict anything.
heywood on 31/8/2008 at 18:51
OK, I'm dreaming, but...
Discussions about tax policy should be focusing on how to fund the government with minimum detriment to the overall economy rather than this mythical thing called "fairness" which we'll never agree on.
For example, I'd like to see a real public debate among economists about whether income taxes or consumption taxes (sales, VAT, etc.) have a greater impact on GDP for the same revenue collected. I suspect consumption taxes are more harmful because they act like friction on the flow of money through the economy, but I don't really know and none of the consumption tax proponents I know seem to care - they just like a formula that rewards their miserly habits.
Another thing I'd like to know is whether the optimum taxation rate on the Laffer curve is income dependent. That could be used to justify a more or less progressive rate schedule based on an economic cost/benefit analysis instead of pitting voting blocks against each other.
Anyway, if there is a sound, objective, economic justification for the rates we all pay I think it would blunt the class warfare arguments somewhat, and fewer people would feel they're getting screwed. Also, it might help prevent legislators from trying to influence behavior through tax policy, resulting in a simpler tax code.
Thief13x on 31/8/2008 at 20:16
Quote Posted by Starrfall
My parents over time reached the current 28% bracket (going by wiki) and put 6 kids through undergraduate school (the vast majority of that pre-Bush cuts) while living a comfortable middle class lifestyle. House, two cars, dog, cat, etc.
right...I guess we all dream of 20th century tuition rates (and tax rates), don't we?
not sure about you but my tuition has gone up over 15% in the short 3 years i've been in college and I would kill for an equal growth rate in salaries right about now.
Starrfall on 31/8/2008 at 20:38
That's kid's stuff. Mine increased a little more than 100% in the 4.5 years I was there.
CLEARLY I HAVE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND
