icemann on 17/8/2017 at 14:38
Only real complaints I had about Alien - Isolation were:
* The Alien(s) invulnerability, which clashes with pretty much every other Alien game ever.
* The Alien nearly always finding you at some locations. The rest it was completely fine.
Rest of the game was great. Games a masterpiece imo. The DLC was average, but good whilst going for the length that it goes.
EvaUnit02 on 18/8/2017 at 06:23
We've got Otherside working on Underworld Ascendant + System Shock 3 and Night Dive making System Shock 1. Even though Prey, Deus Ex 5 and Dishonoured 2 all flopped I'd say that the Immersive Sim genre is in good hands. All we need is for Otherside to make a Thief spiritual successor then we'll have come full circle.
Chade on 18/8/2017 at 13:06
Thief 1/2 still focus on player agency within a simulation. There are big differences to other immersive sim games, but I think it absolutely counts as a sim.
A typical moment of player agency in DX, say, will have the player setting of multiple interacting effects which are all going to coming together at the same time and make something cool happen, which is the payoff. In thief there would be a more drawn out period during which the player takes stock of all the interacting elements in some situation and handles them probably one or two elements at a time. The payoff is more about the buildup and release of tension over time. But both are different flavours of giving the player agency within a simulation.
(BTW, someone mentioned Yahtzee's games. Completely off topic but (
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/content/games/yahtzee/artoftheft) Art of Theft is rather good IMO. Maybe less impressive nowadays in light of all the other indie stealth games that have come out.)
Judith on 18/8/2017 at 13:52
If you have problem with narrowing down what ImSim is, it all boils down to multiple, non-level-scripted systems "listening" to each other and allowing emergent gameplay, in ways often not anticipated by developers. Thief 1-3 games meet these requirements perfectly.
Pyrian on 18/8/2017 at 14:27
Hey, look, another thread devolving into a semantic discussion about what does and does not count as an immersive sim. There's a reason the title eschewed the term...
Sulphur on 18/8/2017 at 14:36
Traditionally, I'd be all over this and yell 'LET'S DO THIS' because I feel like I'm a minority of the population wired that way. But, as all past discussions have been inconclusive, we've shown a certain tenacity and stamina for it. I think imposing a moratorium on the topic in a forum dedicated to it is going to last as long as the average male refractory period.
Which is to say, 15 minutes.
Good job, lads.
Judith on 18/8/2017 at 15:02
I always thought there isn't much point in discussing what ImSim is “to me”, that's why I'm merely stating what's been said or written by guys like Smith or Spector. It's not really up to players, fans, or anyone except developers. They make games, they coined up the term, and it's interesting to see what they mean by that, just by playing their games. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but I'd argue whether it's interesting to get into that, just for the sake of the discussion. I prefer playing games.
Malf on 18/8/2017 at 15:53
Aaaaaanyway, I think we can safely say that the immediate future of the immersive sim is looking okay, but that the future of triple-A efforts is looking shaky.
I think if you're an immersive sim developer dependent on a publisher funding your games, you're going to be pushed into developing games in other genres. Bethesda seem to have fostered Arkane's efforts, but they'll only be patient for so long, and I really wouldn't be surprised to see them looking to drop Arkane or at the very least, re-direct them.
The future does seem to be with indies and crowd-funding at the moment.
IOI thankfully appear to have landed on their feet and should hopefully be able to provide more Hitman, but I'm worried about exactly how big the audience is for their games. While every gamer knows about Hitman, I'm not sure that many of them have played a Hitman game comparatively speaking.
I also wonder if CDPR might get involved in making immersive sims if they see there's a gap in the triple-A market.
Here's hoping Underworld Ascendant and System Shock 3 pan out and are a success for Otherside, but even there, it'll be a niche catering to enthusiasts rather than widespread commercial success.
Twist on 18/8/2017 at 16:02
The developers who formed the genre can't really agree on it, either.
Back around the time of Deus Ex's release, I read an interview with Doug Church and Warren Spector in some gaming magazine, and the point of the interview was basically how they respectfully disagreed with each other on what constituted a more immersive simulated experience (I'm not sure they were using the term immersive sim yet).
Doug Church -- who Spector frequently refers to as big influence on him -- was the Project Director on the first System Shock. He though game abstractions should be minimal and unobtrusive, so he favored minimal to no HUD, no inventory systems and no character stats. His philosophy on that was partially what led to Thief being the way it was (minimal HUD, no RPG stats, no separate inventory screen).
On the other hand, Warren Spector saw immersive simulation more like putting the player in a flight simulator, but as a, um, people simulator, and argued that these abstractions were necessary to fully simulate a wide range of verbs in the game world.
I think they both made great points and I respect them both, so I don't feel strongly about favoring one side or the other. Like in the original Deus Ex and Thief games, both philosophies can work if executed well.
Sulphur on 18/8/2017 at 16:30
I've come up with the best name: these are all post-FPSes.
I joke, but like most post- genres, there's a degree of shakiness to what it can and can't encompass, and the genre set of games that belong to this idea of the ImSim don't always completely lie within the boundaries set by Spector et al. -- in fact, we're better off talking about the genre gradient here instead of lines to colour within.
Anyhoo, I echo Malf's concern for Arkane under a big, maximal-profit focused publisher. It's the same fear I have for Relic with SEGA, and CD with Squeenix. The solution as I see it is simple: go smaller. Stop wasting so much time on photoreal art assets and do something with stylised art direction that is easier to iterate upon, as the games aren't meant to be easily marketed blockbuster action extravaganzas anyway. Go wild and experiment with the priority being on strong gameplay and design first.
