zajazd on 17/8/2017 at 07:19
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
I feel like people (including that author, and probably me at some point in the past) give the new DX games too much credit for being immersive sims. They're better games than Invisible War was, but I feel like
instead of presenting problems and giving the player's avatar tools to solve those problems in a highly systems-driven worldspace they just created a few alternate routes for different builds. I forget which Youtuber mentioned this, but DXHR and DXMD feel like really great Metal Gear-inspired sci-fi stealth games that aren't especially similar to or building on the original game, even if they're better games than the sequel made by the original devs. I also hate the mid-action camera switching and having some SplinterCell 5 style third person cover-stealth instead of the ability to lean. You can handwave stuff like objective markers and the radar thing away because AUGMENTATIONS but I doubt Jensen has an augmentation that shoots a camera at the wall to show his badass takedown and sneaking abilities.
I love when people talk sense about the modern Deus Ex games. I used to hate Human Revolution with passion. I don't know if the authors misunderstood what Deus Ex is about or they thought that it has no place in market, or the publishers made them make a game that is nothing like the original. I am still baffled that Human Revolution is almost universally loved, it has everything I hate about modern triple A games like health regen from the beginning, mission markers (yes I know you can switch them off but then you are simply lost in a maze). Here is a funny post from other forum about Human Revolution/Mass Effect 2:
Quote:
I don't know if you played mass effect 2, but the story starts very much in the same way...
the events aren't in the same order but pretty much the same. Writers don't give a .
Have the game start with a 10 minute long movie on how cool the main character is, place a well "augmented" hot chick who probably wears that skinny outfit to work everyday, briefly present the environment so the player can see how cool it would be to actually live there, and splash a bit of storyline that is confusing but thrilling so that at the end of the movie you won't have any idea what was that all about.
Suddenly when you get to actually move the mouse and walk about, some disaster has to happen that leaves you shocked and confused about (again) what was that all about. Then the character somewhat dies only to be resurrected and pass the next 10 minutes or so having conversations with people who are so amazed you're alive.....
I don't know how much they look alike since I've never played ME2 beyond that point, I couldn't bare it.
samIamsad on 17/8/2017 at 09:46
Part of the problem if you fully run with the initial idea is that these are complex beasts, and require a certain amount of development time/budget, unless it is narrowed down to a very specific experience -- as the article outlines, various survivalist games take big cues off all of this. The core of this is tackling the idea of "Virtual reality" from a software perspective. I think the Underworld 2 manual still says this best.
Inline Image:
http://i41.tinypic.com/iq8t9v.jpgThe other is that it's not an inherent sell as such. Outside of places like these, people barely if at all recognize or care about the design principles targeted back then. Hence the many taglines how "Prey would be Bioshock in space", whilst Prey is a lot closer to what Church and co. were trying to do 25 years ago -- though to be fair, it doesn't try anything hugely particularly new here outside of some new twists and turns -- whilst Dishonored wasn't a straight riff on Thief either, Prey is pretty much the game you pictured System Shock picking up from ... in about 2002, had this line of development not been "cut". (Buy it, it's well worth it). However, as "Virtual Realiyt" is becoming a thing again on the hardware side as well, there is perhaps an opportunity to get it better across.
It seems a bit premature though to conclude from three games not being mega hits this would be the end of a line. I hope it isn't. I too agree though that some publishers seem to set up products to fail. Dishonored 1 was reportedly developed on a (comparably) modest budget, which turned it into a surprise hit of kinds probably even for Bethesda. Eidos meanwhile... they make IPs such as Tomb Raider tank. 'Nuff said. This industry is all about diversification at this point, but it seems some higher ops don't get it.
Quote Posted by dishes
This is disappointing seeing how much I loved Dishonored 2, (ran fine on my PC with a *Core 2 Duo* - of course I turned down graphics settings, but it was totally playable
Core 2 Duo sounds intriguing, but I'm currently in that in-between period where I either have to upgrade a few parts (the core CPU+chipset are still totally fine) or have to delay those too. Most games outside the AAA market place simply don't require any kind of bigger hardware (you would barely ever need to upgrade at this point, and still had games until the day you die), and the first Dishonored running on Unreal Tech was pretty modest here as well. I've just ordered a few additional Ram, out of interest, what video card did you run this on and which resolution?
Malf on 17/8/2017 at 10:31
I think one of the problems with the design of the modern Deus Ex games is that they're designed around achievements, as well as heavily relying on the UbiWorld game design ethos.
Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy them, but the systems don't feel well implemented, and seem to be straining at the seams too often.
In Manky especially, coming off of recently having played MGS V, the systems seemed incredibly rigid by comparison. And they were also notable in how you could break them and exploit those breaks. Hence my long play-through of one level using a plastic bin to get the attention of NPCs one at a time, because even on the hardest difficulty, they'd never investigate in pairs, and would never investigate missing companions.
And there's multiple times I'd experience negative, buggy breaks in the awareness systems as well, where hostile NPCs would become aware of you through walls and set off alarms, with this being especially prevalent after loading a quicksave. That was in both HR and MD.
And this was ultimately massively annoying when pursuing the stealth achievements, as you could get through the whole game thinking you'd fulfilled all the criteria to get the achievement, only to be told you'd failed, and you wouldn't know where or why.
MGS V featured no such ambiguity, and the systems and rankings were flexible enough to allow some wiggle-room in the way you played. In addition, it was easy enough to go back and revisit levels to increase ranks and pursue missed achievements without requiring a full playthrough of the entire game.
Dishonored 2 was definitely better than Manky, but again, was made to look a bit silly by a contemporary, this time Hitman. Where Dishonored 2 could feel constrained and limited in approaches, Hitman was a glorious playground of possibilities, all of which were enabled by its excellent systems design.
I've not bought Prey, even though I want to, because I've decided not to buy any more Bethesda products until they stop being such dicks, setting their lawyers on everyone and strong-arming small studios into giving up their IP.
If "Immersive Sims" are to survive, I'd much rather they follow the examples set by MGS V and Hitman rather than the modern Deus Ex games, or een the Dishonoreds.
Whether they can survive at a triple-A level is an interesting question, as I still think they may be too niche for publishers to feel comfortable with.
One thing I am certain of, and probably won't go down well here, but I think we need less RPG-like ability and stat progression in immersive sims, and more unlockable tools that open up new potential play-styles on subsequent play-throughs.
dishes on 17/8/2017 at 11:00
Quote Posted by samIamsad
Core 2 Duo sounds intriguing, but I'm currently in that in-between period where I either have to upgrade a few parts (the core CPU+chipset are still totally fine) or have to delay those too. Most games outside the AAA market place simply don't require any kind of bigger hardware (you would barely ever need to upgrade at this point, and still had games until the day you die), and the first Dishonored running on Unreal Tech was pretty modest here as well. I've just ordered a few additional Ram, out of interest, what video card did you run this on and which resolution?
Core 2 Duo E6850, 8 GB DDR2, GTX 750 Ti. (Factory OC'd, and I believe 2 GB GDDR5.) The game is mostly CPU bound; Afterburner says both cores are pegged but the GPU is only half used.
Game settings were set to all Very Low 720p with 50% adaptive resolution, so the game will switch to 360p before dropping frames. It can (
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/158031370634878545/9BDA1C7D7018C40CA8358DA3D8AE0664D6113AED/) sometimes look ugly but the art style is pretty enough that it compensates for PS2-level graphics, and it stays between 30 and 60 as a result. Unless you're a PCMR übermensch, this is completely fine by me. Besides, only a few places trigger extreme framedrops - the second mission, and the fourth mission were bad, but everything else was stable in resolution and frames. If I start streaming, then I get always just under 30 and the drops get to unplayable framerates.
Thirith on 17/8/2017 at 11:10
Quote Posted by Malf
Dishonored 2 was definitely better than Manky, but again, was made to look a bit silly by a contemporary, this time Hitman. Where Dishonored 2 could feel constrained and limited in approaches, Hitman was a glorious playground of possibilities, all of which were enabled by its excellent systems design.
I think this is doing a disservice to
Dishonored 2, though, a case where assigning it the label of "immersive sim" becomes problematic. Like
Thief (though not quite to the same extent), it's much more about doing one thing (or in this case two things) and doing them right. Like
Thief it has a focus that
Deus Ex doesn't have, and that's both a limitation and an asset. In comparison, I find that this also gives
Dishonored a visceral directness that
Hitman doesn't have most of the time. Unless you get spotted and are hunted by AI,
Hitman almost feels more like a graphic adventure at times: USE GUN ON MOOSE HEAD, USE KAFTAN ON SELF, GO TO EXIT, that sort of thing. (I could absolutely imagine a LucasArts-style demake of
Hitman.)
Malf on 17/8/2017 at 11:35
Sorry, I should have been more clear; that post was specifically regarding the directly comparable systems in the two games. Such as stealth, or NPC reactivity. Hitman's equivalent systems just feel significantly more robust and flexible. Dishonored 2's have noticeable bugs and janky outcomes, such as upon release, being unable to get non-lethal in the museum level due to a bug where an NPC would unavoidably die after knocking out the main target.
I think it's the finessing of the point where scripting interleaves with systems, and IO just seem better at this than Arkane, who in turn are better than Eidos Montreal.
And at it's core, I think that's one of the most important factors when making an immersive sim. That transition between scripted behaviour and behaviour governed by systems needs to be as seamless and bug-free as possible.
icemann on 17/8/2017 at 12:59
I'd argue that many of the "immersive sim" elements have been incorporated into other games to a degree. Like stealth, RPG elements, some level of inventory management (not necessarily via a viewable backpack / storage container).
If you were to compare a FPS game of now, compared to say 15 years ago, there is QUITE the difference.
Malf on 17/8/2017 at 13:12
Yeah, I think the Ubi template in particular has nicked a lot from immersive sims. Stuff like Far Cry 2 onwards, the recent Tomb Raider games, Assassin's Creed for the RPG elements, the Batman games, they've all implemented elements of immersive sims, but usually without the sim bits (Far Cry is better then most in this respect). All these progression systems you see in a huge swathe of modern games owe a lot to the immersive sim.
One thing I will give the recent Deus Ex games credit for however; they're probably the only modern takes on the genre that include varied and meaningful dialogue interactions (or any interactive dialogue at all outside of full-on RPGs). The social aug is great fun in both games. More of this kind of thing!
Renault on 17/8/2017 at 14:22
Quote Posted by henke
It's more of a straight up stealth-game than an immersive sim, isn't it? Gotta say I'm not entirely sure why Thief 1 & 2 gets included in the ImmSim category either, other than coming out at the right time by the right developer.
Totally disagree. Wide open levels, minimal UI, open ended/emergent gameplay with multiple paths to victory. Very minimal scripted events (conversation are the only thing I can think of). Think of levels like The Haunted Cathedral or Shipping and Receiving, they're just big gaming playgrounds where you can proceed however you choose.
Thief 2014 really didn't have much of any of that. Just the fact that you could only use rope arrows in very specific, designated spots kind of tell you everything you need to know.
samIamsad on 17/8/2017 at 14:31
There's loads of games incorporating eventually
elements on a purely mechanical level. Environmental storytelling is all over the place, as are RPG elements, physics simulations, weapons that can be upgraded. In itself those are means to a bigger end to me. The core of the general idea, the spark that spawned these initial games in the first place, that's something hardly ever fully pursued. Sometimes that's done for commercial reasons -- there were "elements" found even in the original Shock/Underworld games that were deemed annoying by a few back then (every time I see an Alien:Isolation complaint about the back-tracking in a supposed-to-be persistent realistic game space such as the Sevastopol makes my heart sink). Sometimes that's because it's a demanding task. Any garage developer can make an adventure game via AGS, at least on a technical level (rumour has it even Yahtzee did a few), however as soon as simulation rather than scripts come into play, artificial intelligence rather than breadcrumbs, object interaction rather than pre-determined "hot spots" as the only scripted things to "interact with", it's getting increasingly tougher.
Quote Posted by Malf
One thing I am certain of, and probably won't go down well here, but I think we need less RPG-like ability and stat progression in immersive sims, and more unlockable tools that open up new potential play-styles on subsequent play-throughs.
(
http://www.thief-thecircle.com/darkproj/manifesto.html) I love those guys. [Nothing against RPG trappings as such at all... I bought all more recent Obsidian oldschool isometric RPGs for instance. But that ability to think outside of those boxes is/was phenomenal]. Btw, not do go into a semantic argument what is and what isn't a sim, to me that's pointless exercise. To bring that on the topic of the article, I think it is quite right that it isn't just these games that "failed" to hit hard, or not as hard as what hoped. It's the game's market as a whole. With that said, if Arkane et all couldn't creach their core markets, that'd be troublesome [perhaps even amongst the diehards there probably is only so many spiritual successors to System Shock / Deus Ex you can take at a time... in a sense, it's becoming a formula all itself, fantastic as it still may be!].
Quote Posted by dishes
Core 2 Duo E6850, 8 GB DDR2, GTX 750 Ti. (Factory OC'd, and I believe 2 GB GDDR5.) The game is mostly CPU bound; Afterburner says both cores are pegged but the GPU is only half used.
Game settings were set to all Very Low 720p with 50% adaptive resolution, so the game will switch to 360p before dropping frames. It can (
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/158031370634878545/9BDA1C7D7018C40CA8358DA3D8AE0664D6113AED/) sometimes look ugly but the art style is pretty enough that it compensates for PS2-level graphics, and it stays between 30 and 60 as a result. Unless you're a PCMR übermensch, this is completely fine by me.
Cheers, personally not that demanding too, but a better experience is desirable (30 fps minimum at a decent resolution). My 2011/2012ish Intel system is still fine for this, (
http://gamegpu.com/images/stories/Test_GPU/Action/Dishonored_2_/d_1920.png) however a 750 seems stretching it as it reaches its limits quickly. Prey overall seems a far less demanding game overall, maybe should try the free trial when finished on Prey (didn't even know they had put one up). By the way, Prey has one too now. :angel: