Rug Burn Junky on 13/3/2008 at 16:38
Quote Posted by fett
Are they
causing the AIDS epidemic in Africa? No. Are they doing
anything at all to stop it? No. Is their continued promotion of their position contributing to the problem. You bet your ass it is. And for an institution of their size, power, and resources, they're culpable.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this brave new world in which fett is not only on my side, but he's using reasoned, nuanced arguments as well.
It's shaken me to my foundations, I may need to turn to Jesus for help understanding this. ;)
fett on 13/3/2008 at 17:57
He's in my shed. Let me go get him...
Actually, I've pretty much always been queasy about the RCC. After what I saw of them in Thailand after the tsunami, in Mississippi after Katrina, and theater of pain in Calcutta (also known as a 'hospice'), I'm pre-disposed to suspect them of the worst. Ask me about Baptist or Bible fellowship humanitarian efforts, and I have mostly good things to say. Other denominations not so much, and because of the group I spent the last 10 years with, I got to move indiscriminately between many of them.
My observations have little to do with the individuals involved, but more with the programs they represent, how those programs are funded, and what the far-reaching goals are. As I've stated in other threads, the RCC tends to leech on human suffering, though I must admit, the links the_grip provided above have me scratching my head a bit. Maybe there are actually some good RCC programs, motivated by compassion out there, but that has NEVER been my personal experience. Again - not a judgment of the individuals, but the over-arching motivation. I myself have been a victim (*many times*) of mostly pure motivation, but ended up as part of something that was reprehensible in it's goals, funding, etc.
Either way, it seems ridiculous to point out how the RCC is helping so many HIV victims after the fact, when their heavy-handed influence re:birth control contributes to them being there in the first place. That's the fucking least they can do in light of what they could prevent by joining the rest of us in this century.
Matthew on 13/3/2008 at 18:37
(Side note - out of interest fett, did you come across any Presbyterian-run efforts?)
the_grip on 13/3/2008 at 18:43
Thanks for the reply fett. i hope i don't come across as the RCC's defense here... i'm more like the devil's advocate in this issue (at least that's what i'm trying to be).
i definitely do agree that the very least the RCC could do is say, "Hey, condoms are good for stopping AIDS, so if you are going to go against our moral theology, please at least be smart about it and use a condom." i know there is a big hangup in the RCC with the lesser of two evils argument (generally speaking they view any evil as not an option - and i don't think condoms are evil, i'm speaking from a devil's advocate position here), so they may have problems getting to that point. At any rate, it is stupid to let things get worse when you could make them not so worse.
In the end, however, i am interested in this stuff on a personal level as well. As life goes by and i get older and more fartier, i also get less inclined towards religious faith in general. While i'm a long ways away from my religious upbringing as a kid, i do still have some likes about Christianity in general. If it were to be Christianity, it would be something like catholicism from a theological standpoint (i just don't find evangelical stuff able to be stomached at all). Thus, while i'm not planning on going catholic or even really investigating anything at this point - call me a lazy agnostic - i do still have many friends, etc., who are catholics (some more die hard than others), and so i do have an interest in this stuff.
Anyways, droning on here... thanks for the reply.
fett on 13/3/2008 at 20:30
Matthew - not much experience there. It's typically the HUGE denominations that can afford the more extravagant and/or meaningful efforts. Look at the Southern Baptist Cooperative Missions program for instance - absolutely mind-blowing some of the stuff they've accomplished in third world countries, though I wish they were more politically savvy about it at times. I don't know if the Presbyterian denomination has the cash or clout to step up into that arena, though they may have and I'm just not aware of it.
the_grip - I didn't think you were trying to defend the RCC. I'm just trying to draw a defining line between judging the everyman in an institution and judging the institution itself (read: the guys making all the money). There are lots of RCC people who are probably very altruistic, but the institution itself has a history of throwing up a hospital or a mission at the drop of a hat, while ignoring the larger political or social issue causing the problems - problems that they could speak to and affect because of their influence and financial power. They use that power quite often when the institution itself is threatened, but they seldom do it on behalf of the oppressed people they serve. It's confusing at best, and self-serving at worst.
jtr7 on 13/3/2008 at 20:55
:thumb:
van HellSing on 13/3/2008 at 22:10
†™
