van HellSing on 12/3/2008 at 18:22
You know, condoms are a sin but so is fucking outside of marriage.
the_grip on 12/3/2008 at 18:26
Quote Posted by Turtle
Don't forget that 'society' also includes those folks over in Africa.
I'm guessing the Governor at least had the option to slap on a rubber before he made his life changing mistake.
That's harder to do if you live in a country where condoms are scarce because a guy in a poncho and a chef's hat says it's a sin to use them.
Look, i agree that the "no condoms" policy is not the most efficient to stave off AIDS in Africa. Completely agree.
And if the RCC was saying that folks should be having unprotected sex as the alternative, then i'd agree with you. They ain't saying that.
The RCC position is that they encourage abstinence and monogamous relationships as their solution. Realistic? Maybe for "good catholics", but that number is small. But they are not trying to promote AIDS in Africa. If you don't see this huge difference then you need to rub the myopia from your eyes.
When it comes to the rampant rape in Africa, then condoms don't enter the equation anyways.
The RCC is not the "cause" of evil in Africa. They may not be doing the best job to fight it (and stupid archbishops saying condoms actually cause AIDS is ridiculous to be sure), but there is a huge difference between offering one form of solution that some don't agree with and actually trying to cause evil.
To be even more fair, i don't think the RCC has said anything official (i.e. from the top) regarding the use of condoms in AIDS prevention. They refer to it in terms of birth control. It does not excuse them, but i do recognize how slow the RCC as an organization is when issuing policy.
And, for the record, i do think condoms would be a more efficient alternative for the problem. As i said earlier, i'm not siding with the RCC here. i just think that the people who are all over the top about them on the negative side tend to miss some important details to balance their positions.
Turtle on 12/3/2008 at 18:41
Fun Fact!: Not everyone in Africa is Catholic, but I'll bet they probably have a hard time finding contraceptives/birth control, too.
fett on 13/3/2008 at 01:18
Quote Posted by the_grip
The RCC position is that they encourage abstinence and monogamous relationships as their solution. Realistic? Maybe for "good catholics", but that number is small.
In a country whose culture could give a flying fuck about abstinence and monogamous relationships. Here's an idea: instead of spending their ill-earned tithe money and power to promote their 'position' on birth control, they could fucking lean on some of the governments and police authorities who allow rampant rape to continue. That's about as realistic as the idea that these folks are going to be abstinent or monogamous.
Ye gods people, this is the second thread in a week around here where someone wants to talk nice about the Catholic church, specifically as it pertains to their piss-poor attempts to "serve" people in Africa. Their involvement (or lack thereof) only continues to muddle the social, economic, and health problems. It's been demonstrated over and over (AND FUCKING OVER) again that Africa needs practical solutions to real problems like diseased well water, latrine and sewage implementation, sex and health education, nutrition, clean living space, etc., etc. From Mother Teresa down to this birth control bullshit, all I can see is a profanely wealthy organization of religious idiots who'd rather use the situation there to proselytize and further manipulate a populace.
When they start building hospitals and laying sewer pipe, I'll give a fuck what anyone has to say about their involvement on ANY level in Africa. Let me amend that: Until they spend
the same amount on money on building hospitals as they spend building churches. As far as I can tell, they're doing what they've always done historically - taking advantage of the weak and the helpless and throwing around spare change to create the illusion of 'ministry' so they can add more notches to their 'total membership' gun.
Are they
causing the AIDS epidemic in Africa? No. Are they doing
anything at all to stop it? No. Is their continued promotion of their position contributing to the problem. You bet your ass it is. And for an institution of their size, power, and resources, they're culpable.
jtr7 on 13/3/2008 at 01:47
Yep! And so's everybody else who has power to do something, knows about the problem, just lets the shit continue, and points fingers.
Epos Nix on 13/3/2008 at 01:53
Quote:
Is their continued promotion of their position contributing to the problem.
Mind you, I'm sure they view the AIDS epidemic worldwide as God's vengeance on the morally weak. Of course, considering the whole "wages of sin is death" thing, its kind of easy to see why the RC Church doesn't do a whole lot to stop people from dying but
does indeed do a lot of proselytizing... it's what they exist for!
the_grip on 13/3/2008 at 03:00
fett, i very much respect your background in terms of religious studies and your opinion as a whole. i'm also not an expert on the subject of the RCC in Africa, nor do i want to come off as trying to be such. However, i'm still not convinced that the situation is as one sided as you portray
For example, a quick Google seach shows this:
Namibia RCC Link:
(
http://www.rcchurch.na/)
You can see the hospitals and clinics they run. If you look at the photos of their services, you can also see that the churches are anything but posh.
Here is a link on wiki regarding the RCC in the Congo:
(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo)
Quote:
The impact of the Roman Catholic Church in the DRC is difficult to overestimate. Schatzberg has called it the country's "only truly national institution apart from the state." Besides involving over 40 percent of the population in its religious services, its schools have educated over 60 percent of the nation's primary school students and more than 40 percent of its secondary students. The church owns and manages an extensive network of hospitals, schools, and clinics, as well as many diocesan economic enterprises, including farms, ranches, stores, and artisans' shops.
i also have a number of family friends who gave up their lives here in the US as doctors to offer their medical services at third world religious health clinics. They have done surgeries and all kinds of stuff that, at least according to them, no one else is doing (simple stuff like cleft pallets, etc. to more serious stuff). My sister in law, although not a doctor, volunteers for this stuff off and on during the year for a few weeks at a time (and she is about as disillusioned with religion as you can get, but she uses the religious clinics simply because they go where other organizations don't, at least for folks who are not highly specialized, etc., or for places that are not in the press, like Guatemala and the like).
Again, i'm not saying you are inherently wrong here - i'm just not seeing the evidence you are looking at. If you can provide some, i'd appreciate it.
i also think sure, the RCC could do things better, no doubt. But so could every other organization on the planet (including the US, including the Red Cross, including the Peace Corps). Organized philanthropic efforts are anything but easy and don't play too well with idealism - whether they are religious efforts or otherwise - precisely because idealism is highly individualistic (but nonetheless very important as a motivating factor). In the RCC mind, humanitarianism does have more facets than simple physical needs, but every RCC person i know who is involved with this kind of stuff puts physical needs at the top of the list and does not really consider proselytizing as the most important or even at all.
jtr7 on 13/3/2008 at 03:20
You know, I could see the RCC having a stranglehold on countries if they controlled the governments, thereby preventing outside groups from coming in and/or being effective. Is that what's happening there?
Vasquez on 13/3/2008 at 08:27
Quote Posted by fett
As far as I can tell, they're doing what they've always done historically - taking advantage of the weak and the helpless and throwing around spare change to create the illusion of 'ministry' so they can add more notches to their 'total membership' gun.
Ooh fett, you look so...
different nowadays
Inline Image:
http://whitecortex.net/vela/images/smiles/007.gifBrokenArts on 13/3/2008 at 14:47
You mean that thumb nail image that makes his head look way too small? Yeah, I'd say so. We'ze need bigger head image......oh no.
