SD on 11/9/2022 at 08:32

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If we ended the monarchy, what would happen is what happened in Bulgaria, where the deposed king was elected Prime Minister. So they would have real power rather than, as it was eloquently put elsewhere, as much power as Punxsutawney Phil has over the weather.

mxleader on 11/9/2022 at 21:19

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How likely would King Chucky III be to get elected into any kind of office?

mxleader on 12/9/2022 at 03:08

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I get all my information about British politics from Johnathan Pie so I'm assuming that you could be referring to Boris Johnson.

Aged Raver on 12/9/2022 at 06:51

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Right.

> … Americans visiting the UK and acting disrespectful is like cousins that haven't visited for a very long time showing up and making fun of your mom and the decor.

HaHa! That made me laugh.
But I didn’t say they were American. :D

Yesterday I happened to click on a YouTube live stream of the Queen’s coffin being driven from Balmoral, where she died, to Edinburgh (the Athens of the North). 6 hours they said. From the family privacy to the public gaze. Not quite like handing your dead parent over to the powers-that-be, which I’ve done myself, but I could identify with the feeling. Her daughter Anne, who I’ve never liked, accompanied her Mum on the slow drive through the quiet countryside and I felt sorry for her. But who’d want to spend ages watching aerial shots of some vehicles from a helicopter traveling the route? Apparently I would. I was hooked.

The Scots are, and always have been, tremendous and I choked up. Country horse riders made their own little guard of honour at the side of a field and loads of farmers lined tractors, perhaps a hundred? along the edge of the route. Packed with symbolism, too much to mention. Initially dozens of people, cars parked by the side of the road, and then bridge after overhead-bridge lined with people, and the closer to Edinburgh, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds.

As an island we manage to cock a lot of things up but with the pomp and ceremony we manage to impress ourselves, if nobody else. It’s a goldmine of stuff for cynics to mock and the sort of stuff I often avoid but my feelings weren’t far below surface, mixing with memories of my own family deaths. Leaving aside marching bands, salutes, trumpets and canons being fired it was the simple unrehearsed stuff that got me. A chap on the country road standing on his own, removing his hat as the hearse went by, people throwing flowers in front of the car, or bowing, the old civilities, people doing what they felt appropriate from hushed silence to outbreaks of applause and cheers. They came out in great numbers. God bless Scotland. And the interviews. Folks saying it’s like losing their grandma. Young as well as old. I didn’t expect that. Very emotional. Respect and affection, in some cases by people who had never turned out for anything before.

Reaching its destination the coffin was hoisted on shoulder by guardsmen and carried inside. Having carried my own parent’s coffin, again the hit. Anne was standing near the door, and quietly curtsied to her Mum. Well I’ve never curtsied but I know that feeling of respect and hanging on to old ways for just one last time. The tradition of curtseying, like others, is disappearing. I’m not inviting comment, just making observation.

I think there are underlying strands in the UK of people who are not that vociferous, and not necessarily articulate, who can see through mis-information whether about politics, monarchy or anything else and quietly keep their own counsel. When overpaid opinion pollsters come knocking at the door they keep quiet. They know right from wrong by instinct and surprise each other when once in a while they come out in force. God bless ‘em.

I live in the South of England about as far away on the mainland that you can get from Scotland and yet St Andrews, a little Scottish church just round the corner, with its proud saltires, on the morning after the Queen died had a big poster of her on it’s public notice board and a large bright Union Jack flying at half-mast on it’s flag pole.

I reckon this thing could get swept along in the next few days as the coffin comes from Scotland to England by ordinary folk, salt of the earth, backbone of the country. (By country I don’t mean England or Great Britain, I mean the UK). I’m not qualified to judge the moods of Commonwealth nations. Sure some republicans may seek to disrupt but even a day ago I read a piece by a long time republican who was overflowing in his praise for the Queen.

As for the long term, who knows? It’s a hell of a job and Charles is not much younger than I am. The media will seek to build him up in a honeymoon period and then bring him down as is their wont (another reason the Queen kept shtum). Tough gig. And it’s a job for life, unlike with elected politicians. (And of course you can’t trust the public with making democractic decisions. You end up with things like Brexit.) Good luck mate.
……………….

I was surprised that a thread supposedly for reflections on Queen Elizabeth II had within two days attracted comments about the Mau Mau, Brexit, double-decker buses and God-knows-what preparing the ground for a bun-fight about anything British, no knowledge of the Queen required.

(For the record she had no more power over Margaret Thatcher and the Falklands War than she did over the thousands of Ukranian soldiers that we’ve been training in the UK over the last several months. Ditto Tony Blair and Iraq. Even Blair’s own government had no control over him. As for the Mau Mau you may have to look at Churchill. I don’t know enough of Kenyan history and was still fairly young when it was in the news but didn’t the UK pay out millions to people who suffered in the 50’s?)

All these topics are worthy of their own threads but The Monarch has no power in such matters. He/she needs to be above politics. Her Prime Ministers (over 70 years she had 15 Prime Ministers) do that. Yes she met xxx world leaders (some less savoury than others) and 14 US presidents. It’s easy to see why Johnny-Foreigner gets confused. Shock! Horror! but she wasn’t elected.

And as for Brexit, well ... that was something called democracy. Which way do you want it?

It was always said that one of the Queen’s mantras was “Never complain, never explain” so I have failed badly Ma'am. And when the Moderator joins in, you know you’ve walked into a trap. The forum rule is stay on topic unless … fill in your own words.

Still I’ve learned my lesson and it’s always instructive to hear from those fortunate enough to reside somewhere with no tradition, no left-over feudal values or conventions and certainly no history of war atrocities.

Unlike MacArthur I don’t think I’ll return.

demagogue on 12/9/2022 at 12:19

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I think you took at least my comments the wrong way around. While I criticize bad government behavior and value signaling as my day job, I actually really respect and care about the symbolic and ceremonial side of civics.

What I meant in saying do you really expect British are going to vote against the monarchy & other really core Britishisms, is no, it's unreasonable to expect a population to vote against such things, and it's probably wrong to boot...

Uh, long story short, Martha Nussbaum wrote a book called Political Emotions: Why Love Matters for Justice, which I'm getting close to finishing soon. Her argument was, if you get rid of the fascist tendencies (you have to do that much!), instilling love of your country and your fellow residents is a good thing. It's good to want to work to make your country a better place and take care of its people. And celebrating civic rituals helps instill that kind of love in people. She made a good case.

Also I tend to think that official figures that had the right intention, that made sacrifices in their own life to be in service of their country and its people, I mean they may fuck up a lot, but I think that kind of intention to be of service should be applauded. And that's one thing the monarchy also stands for. It's why I always pay tribute to politicians that had noble intentions when they die, for those intentions, even given their fuck ups, which are often substantial. The one line that they can't cross is when their intention derails from service and they're just in the game for personal greed or malice.

Basically I'll always pay tribute to the noble intentions people have when they have them, and love of and service to one's community is one of the most noble, because values and intention matter. We should be encouraged to love each other and be in service to one another. That's a good value that I want to see promoted every chance we can. And I'll usually be careful to make sure people get the message that I'm promoting the right values a person tried to live by, not the failures, which I always try to be clear aren't acceptable when they aren't acceptable.

If you saw my Facebook page, you'd see I did make a tribute to the Queen. I posted what's generally recognized as the most beautiful tune in Duke Ellington's The Queen's Suite, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOA_BazyGPA) The Single Petal of a Rose, which is often ranked as the most beautiful tune he composed full stop (remembering he's also often regarded as the greatest American composer of all time), and it's one of the high points in all of jazz. He wrote that because he was inspired and moved by what Q. Elizabeth II stood for when he met her. Whatever can inspire something that beautiful has to have something beautiful inside of it that it's expressing to the world, and I think something like that is worth paying tribute to. It's mythology, sure, but it's beautiful mythology with the message to love and be in service to each other, and that's a lovely value.