Renzatic on 4/3/2005 at 21:16
The only thing I ever had a problem with out of that list is the atomic frob, it was generally a bit too extreme considering what it was. Everything else didn't bother me, specially the loot glint...which I found to be quite helpful but still didn't ruin the loot hunt aspect of the game.
mol on 4/3/2005 at 21:22
Quote Posted by Krypt
I tend to agree with Harwin on the loot glint subject. I feel it was a necessary feature to help the player with telling the loot apart from decoration junk objects.
Initially, I categorically hated the loot glint. Then I reconsidered, and realized that I didn't really hate the loot glint
per se, I only felt that it was visible from across too great distances. It somehow took something away from the sense of exploration, and the exhilaration of risking exploring the other side of a larger room and getting caught in the process, when you could see from a safe distance that there was something of value on the other side.
But really, ultimately that's a minor point, and nowadays I don't even think about it much while playing TDS. The only real issues I had with TDS were the small levels and the loading zones that broke the immersion for me, and the lack of the vertical element, the thieves highway, which I didn't think was well implemented by the climbing gloves.
On the plus side, I think TDS captured the spirit of the Thief games well. I loved the conversations, the look of the game, the overall story, and many, many other things about the game. I played it 'till the end, which none of the other games I've tried in recent years have compelled me to do.
And now, I'm really hyped up about the editor, and I can't thank enough all of you who had anything to do with getting it released. You're amazing, all of you!
ZylonBane on 4/3/2005 at 21:43
Quote Posted by Krypt
I tend to agree with Harwin on the loot glint subject. I feel it was a necessary feature to help the player with telling the loot apart from decoration junk objects. In several cases the exact same mesh was used for a piece of loot and a junk object that were occasionally placed right next to each other.
The same thing happens in classic Thief. For example, there are valuable and non-valuable wine bottles-- but they are
extremely easy to tell apart because the artists did a competent job differentiating the texturing.
Quote:
I never understood why people hate the frob highlight effect, or "atomic frob" as you put it.
Two main reasons:
1. The glowy electric-blue metallic Tron effect is garish and completely unsubtle.
2. More egregiously, it doesn't just brighten the existing texture, it
replaces it. The classic Thief frob highlight made objects easier to identify by simply fullbrighting them. The TDS frob highlight makes objects
harder to identify because the texture for an object disappears whenever you try to get a close look at it.
Quote:
I don't really know what you mean by laser arrows.
I mean the snazzy bright blue trail arrows leave. Strikes me as a bit too Buck Rogers for the Thief universe.
Twist on 4/3/2005 at 21:54
I agree with just about everything mol said. :thumb:
I didn't mind the concepts behind the loot glint and the, um, atomic frob, but I believe the visual effects should've been toned down to lessen the damage to immersion.
Loot Glint: I understand and agree with Harwin and Krypt's defense of the loot glint. Again, I just believe it should've been toned down a bit. I much, much prefer John P's toned down and more subtle bronze colored loot glint.
Atomic Frob: Why did frobbing the door have to be so bright and blue instead of merely making the door texture "fullbright" like in Thief 1 & 2? The "atomic" nature of the door frob reduces immersion. Again, John P's more subtle, bronze colored door frob seems far more practical and natural.
The one design decision regarding which I would love to hear a developer's perspective is the first-person perspective player control and movement.
I'm sorry -- overall, I loved your game, even considering my several concrete criticisms -- but I really don't understand how that wonky player movement made it past a professional quality assurance team. In playing through TDS, it is the one aspect of the design which I have a hard time tolerating -- even with several tweaks to the player animations ini.
Did someone at some point focus this game on third-person control instead of first-person, and then it was too late and too difficult to create a separate scheme for player control and feel for first-person?
That's what it seems like to me.
Again, I don't mean to be unfairly critical. I'm just being honest. :) And I still very much respect and appreciate your collective efforts.
New Horizon on 4/3/2005 at 22:54
I am, to the dismay of many no doubt, of the mind that things could have been made more subtle. :) Keep in mind I understand why things were done the way they were in the game. Time is a huge factor.
My own suggestion for the elimination of the loot glint would have been to make junk items wood and anything of value Gold or Silver. They could still have shared a texture. Fullbright also helped in the old games too, for if you were ever unsure of something, you just frobbed it to see the finer details. The shared textures and additive color frob effect worked together to create the need for loot glint. Again, I do understand the reasoning and don't want anyone involved to feel like I'm wagging an accusing finger. ;)
ZylonBane on 4/3/2005 at 23:23
Quote Posted by New Horizon
The shared textures and additive color frob effect worked together to create the need for loot glint.
Precisely. Loot glint (more properly described as a loot beacon) was a solution to a problem that didn't exist until they created it.
Karkianman on 5/3/2005 at 01:50
i actually hated the loot hunt in the earlier thiefs. without the glint, i wouldnt have completed t3.
Sah on 5/3/2005 at 01:54
Quote Posted by Harwin
Too much loot in Thief 1 and Thief 2 was indistinguishable from junk.
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
This really isn't true. The vast majority of valuable objects in T1/2 were obviously goldish, silvery, or jewel-encrusted. And the frob highlight in those games didn't completely obscure the texture of the highlighted object.
Exactly. The loot was often hard to spot - think "Old quarter" and the ruined buildings - but in general everything that remotely resembled gold was loot. Coins, rings, golden vases, pottery, cups etc. - everything had a distinctive yellow color and it worked.
How many people playing Thief had any problems distinguishing loot from junk anyway? :)
Quote Posted by Krypt
I never understood why people hate the frob highlight effect, or "atomic frob" as you put it. It is just a graphical effect used to show that you have an object highlighted, and it accomplishes that... My only problem was the fact that it creates glowy highlights on objects instead of lighting up the whole thing. It was sometimes hard to tell when you have an object highlighted if the glowing part is on the other side.
I felt the loot glint, the frob highlight and the arrow trails were simply too intrusive for an immersive, slow paced game that Thief (usually) is. Maybe you, the developers, simply got too used to it? I don't know. I know I feel as if the blue frob effect takes away some part of my Thief experience - the concentration, the tension. When I approach a door listening carefully for every little noise, ready to jump back into the shadows in case something unexpected happend - I do not wish to be reminded that "it is only a game". (Sounds awfully cheesy, but it's 2:49 here - zzzz. You get the point.)
New Horizon on 5/3/2005 at 01:56
I was messing around with some different shaders and found effects that almost looked like the old Thief 1, 2 frob. Alas, it wouldn't work on all surfaces.
Twist on 5/3/2005 at 04:59
Quote Posted by Sah
I know I feel as if the blue frob effect takes away some part of my Thief experience - the concentration, the tension. When I approach a door listening carefully for every little noise, ready to jump back into the shadows in case something unexpected happend - I do not wish to be reminded that "it is only a game". (Sounds awfully cheesy, but it's 2:49 here - zzzz. You get the point.)
It doesn't sound cheesy at all, Sah. And I think you're right on the money with your description.
But I'm guessing we've scared the developers away from this thread now. :sweat:
