MrBosnia on 9/5/2008 at 04:06
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
We still haven't seen this study though.
Nope, we haven't.
Rogue Keeper on 9/5/2008 at 06:48
Quote Posted by MrBosnia
To clarify to all what I meant,
I meant that the roots of a religion were founded in attempt to discipline the human mind and keep it moral. Religion was founded on war, but in attempt to civilize human beings.
Try Atheist. And what does a technocracy have to do with arguing Atheist rationality?
Yes, it was necessary to discipline it back then. But we can't count on secularism to discipline our nature even after centuries of enlightenment, because most humans are emotional first and rational later. Wouldn't be there any wars without religions? Ridiculous.
On the other hand, technocracy has much to do with dictate of cold logic and clear schematic rationality, whatever it's supposed to mean, as everyone has common sense nad 'clear perception' of his own. But one can develop his rationality without neglecting his spirituality and vice versa.
Both extremes, dictate of logic and dictate of (mainly negative) emotions, can significantly alter your human essence if you allow them. Balance in all things, I'd say.
Being aware of atrocities of religions, I won't trust atheism to secure a better world, because atheism alone has no such goal. Atheism itself guarantees no rationality, but it can be also argued that killing may be rational. The atrocities of religion (or any secular political ideology, when we come to it) are in fact atrocities of human spirit in the first place.
The_Raven on 9/5/2008 at 12:44
People will always be clubbing each other over the head for retarded reasons till the end of time. I do, however, believe that religion creates a dangerous mentality where it is all too easy to conscript a large amount people into doing some detestable things with the promise of a great reward in the afterlife.
Rogue Keeper on 9/5/2008 at 13:30
Ok, but why it would be less rational than any other "reason" of philosophical or civilizational misunderstanding for which we kill each other?
fett on 9/5/2008 at 13:31
Quote Posted by BR796164
Being aware of atrocities of religions, I won't trust atheism to secure a better world, because atheism alone has no such goal. Atheism itself guarantees no rationality, but it can be also argued that killing may be rational. The atrocities of religion (or any secular political ideology, when we come to it) are in fact atrocities of human spirit in the first place.
Well said, BR#'s!
Richard Dawkins and Pat Robertson scare the shit out of me equally.
Ben Gunn on 9/5/2008 at 13:53
Atheism does not= peace on earth, thats true. But as an Israelian I can tell you that if the Israely-Palestinian conflict was merely a political one,- about lands- it would have been resolved a long time ago. Unfortunatlely (for us, for them and when Iran will have the atom- for all of the world), underneath the conflict is religious, and Jerusalem is its heart and soul. Because of that it will never be resolved. We have our fanatics, they have theirs- every step in the right direction results in PM assassinations, more terror, civil wars and in the end of the day it's back to square 0.
Only because the conflict is religious and zealous in its essence.
Universal atheism wont mean less conflicts but ffs- they will at least be resolvable!... but what's the use- the reign of atheism is more of a dream than peace in the ME.
Rogue Keeper on 9/5/2008 at 14:21
The establishment of Israel was a secular decision coming from the Christian civilization, which didn't foresee the consequences. Fine, Jewish people would have right to live in the land of their forefathers, but so would the Palestinians.
Christian/Judaist and Muslim civilizations were biting each together for almost thousand years and now Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the main front of this clash. Because of secular decision of the United Nations. Where was superior judgment of secular western rationality back then? Gone fishing. Now religions are to blame for what's happening.
Jennie&Tim on 9/5/2008 at 14:30
I would argue that whether we all see the same color when we percieve "red" is irrelevant to my argument that the religious percieve god in the same direct way. Clearly, every individual (with the proper cones and brain structure to do so) can point to a range of objects and describe them as red. There will be some fuzziness where it blends to purple or orange or if the hues darken to black or lighten to white. But most of us have a clear idea of red, and the perception is direct from our senses to our brains. If someone tried to tell you that an object that you percieve as red was blue, you'd not believe them.
For practical purposes, it's not important that we all see the same colors subjectively. It's enough that most people can agree that a particular object has the same label. Everyone calls objects that reflect the same wavelength pretty much the same color, though some have more names for the gradations than others. You will of course have people debate the merits of magenta/scarlet/red/brick/red-orange/ etc.
IIRC, some people also have four cone color receptors, and do make greater distinctions than the rest of us. I think it relates to a duplication of a gene on the X chromosome.
Ben Gunn on 9/5/2008 at 14:37
Quote Posted by BR796164
The establishment of Israel was a secular decision coming from the Christian civilization, which didn't foresee the consequences. Fine, Jewish people would have right to live in the land of their forefathers, but so would the Palestinians.
Christian/Judaist and Muslim civilizations were biting each together for almost thousand years and now Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the main front of this clash. Because of secular decision of the United Nations. Where was superior judgment of secular western rationality back then? Gone fishing. Now religions are to blame for what's happening.
The UN decision was not rational- partly it came from a sense of guilt for being such a fucktards and closing their gates for jewish refugees who fled Hitler. So what? (Seems like you have no prob in continuing to be a fucktard in person to this very day)
I didnt say religions are the only cause of this conflict but they are sure its main fuel to keep it burning. Even if you cant see it from over there.
Who do you think inhabit the settlements? Why do you think Hamas is not willing to even acknowledge the existance of Israel? out of grudge? Where do suicide bombers think they are going when they die? Who dreams of blowing up El-aktza to hasten the arrival of the messiah? Why do you talk of things you have little knowledge about?
Rogue Keeper on 9/5/2008 at 14:48
I could have seen this coming. Failure of rationality on my part.
My Palestinian ex-collegue (naturalized and not overly religious) had a very similar temper to yours and knowing him I started to understand why you people dislike each other so much.
