bukary on 18/3/2014 at 14:01
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I don't get why he doesn't just say - we want the oil and the gas and the military bases and we're not prepared to give up all that. It's what everyone knows, what everyone is thinking. The time for bs is over.
The oil and the gas... that's not what Putin wants. He already has it. He wants the glory of Russian Empire in its old borders. There's one thing that Putin can't stand: humiliation. And he feels humiliated since USSR disintegration. Ukaraine trying to be part of Western Europe - that would be another humiliation. He's never going to allow it. That's why he also hates Poland so much.
And... unlike other leaders, he does not hide his intentions. He said it in his speech.
And it was brillant how he presented himseld as the leader of the free world and carrier of peace while convincing everyone that USA is opressing, attacking other independent nations, and bringing chaos to the world. Great speech! :)
Muzman on 18/3/2014 at 17:04
Quote Posted by demagogue
At least he's not coy about what this is all about. We all understand that if he makes a move on the Baltic states, that triggers the NATO obligations and it's WWIII, right?
What is the ethnic Russian population of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia these days I wonder?
I expect we'll see maps showing every potential new "Sudetenland" in ex Soviet territory soon enough.
He must know that's what everyone is thinking, on some level, too. Despite all that anti-nazi and anti-anti-semite talk.
ed. and yes he has chosen his moment fairly well, when you think a good portion of the world thinks the US is paranoid and duplicitous now. And sadly it's true.
bukary on 18/3/2014 at 17:35
Quote Posted by demagogue
We all understand that if he makes a move on the Baltic states, that triggers the NATO obligations and it's WWIII, right?
He is not interested in the Baltic states. He wants to incorporate Ukraine and Belarus.
june gloom on 18/3/2014 at 19:58
Quote Posted by bukary
It was also "funny" to listen how he mocks USA, its pitiful sanctions, politics and its army with sarcastic smile every few sentences. I am not sure how Obama is regarded as a president in his country (perhaps his internal politics is admirable), but it seems that most of the world (nor only Russians) regard him a naive wuss.
Depending on who you ask, he's either the Anti-Christ or a naive wuss. Very few people think he's Jesus anymore.
bukary on 18/3/2014 at 20:17
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Depending on who you ask, he's either the Anti-Christ or a naive wuss. Very few people think he's Jesus anymore.
I watched Obama - Zach Galifianakis interview few days ago. I'm sure Putin found some time to watch it too. He must have had a great time. ;)
nemyax on 18/3/2014 at 20:21
Quote Posted by ;2242779
Putin does not want the eastern part of Ukraine. He wants it all and, as he said, he will get it one way or another.
The guy said, literally:
Quote:
Don't believe people who scare you with Russia and scream that other regions will follow Crimea. We do not want a partitioning of Ukraine. We do not need it. As regards Crimea, it's going to belong, as ever, to Russians and Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars—I repeat—it will be, as it has been for centuries, the home of all peoples that live there, but it will never belong to Bandera followers.
Where's the "want it all" notion in that?
bukaryYour posts are excellent slogan material, but they are thin on substance and take lots of liberties with their sources. And ironically, other posters happily take your word for anything.
Specter on 18/3/2014 at 20:28
Quote Posted by bukary
He is not interested in the Baltic states. He wants to incorporate Ukraine and Belarus.
Belarus is already more or less an extension of Russia. It doesnt matter what you call it, so long as Russia is in control.
As for Russia aquiring more Ukranian territory, I disagree. While they are aware of the relatively weak stance of the West, there is of course a point where the West must respond.
As we saw in Georgia, Russia is content to aquire those areas with a strong local desire to be part of the Russian Federation. If we had to speculate what would be next, Id say Transneistria.
As for the potential for a conflict with Russia, it would never be the doomsday WW3 that people think. Neither side is suicidal, and modern warfare has no need for nuclear weapons. Any conflict would take the form of Russian armor and infantry, with limited air support pitted against local militias and Western air support. While Russia has a strike first policy with its strategic forces, it is only for those times when the strategic and vital interests of the country itself are immenently under threat. In a conflcit in one of these 3rd party areas, the West would not strike at any Russian asset in Russia.
bukary on 18/3/2014 at 21:58
Quote Posted by nemyax
Your posts are excellent slogan material, but they are thin on substance and take lots of liberties with their sources.
Lots of liberties? If you expect anyone to not read between the lines in any speech given by Russian politician, than we should all agree that "Crimean Tatars, as the referendum has shown, also lean towards Russia" (quote from Putin's speech). Oh, really?
Do you know how I read this sentence "with lots of liberties"? I read it: the referendum was fake, because Crimean Tatars are loyal to Ukraine and refused to participate in this farce. (BTW, perhaps some of you heard the story of one of Tatar's journalist who prooved how fake this referendum was by voting in three different places with the use of the same passport.)
You also missed (obviously) the summary sentence in my quote:
Quote:
He wants the Russian empire to rise again.
Why would you not notice the part about the will to make Russia an empire (USSR-like) again? In my post and in Putin's speech? How on earth can you imagine Putin doing that without incorporating the whole Ukraine or making it dependent state? (Obviously, not with pure force right now). Yes, Putin does not want the separation of Ukarine. He wishes to swallow the whole when the time comes. Just read between the lines. It's obvious for every bloody reporter, journalist or politician that I am hearing today, but not for you. It's what Yanokvitz was supposed to do for Putin (make Ukraine completely dependent, Belarus-like state), but was too stupid (and greedy) to perform it with grace. Putin will try to find another way. Soon.
Did you miss the part about the historical origins of Russia (as a state) that are connected with southern territories (Ukraine)? Did you miss the part about erroneous separation of Ukraine and Russia? Did you miss the part about how wrong it is that USSR is no more? Did you miss the part about "the culture, civilisation and human values that unite the peoples of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus"? Do you think (in the light of recent events) that these are just sentiments, longings that have no connection to reality?
BTW, the "official" transcript of this speech started to emerge (it's not complete yet, and the second half is important), so anyone can read: (
http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/6889)
Nicker on 18/3/2014 at 22:13
Quote Posted by nemyax
This was one of the two options—the one that lost out. The option that wasn't included was to stay independent. (You knew they had declared independence on paper a couple of days before, right? Of course you didn't.)
Except it was not.
Choice 1: Are you in favour of the reunification of Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?[73]
Choice 2: Are you in favour of restoring the 1992 Constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?[73]
In my understanding, option two was a sham and would actually restore the Crimea's status as an "autonomous republic". That would add one simple step for Russia annexing the Crimea and eliminate the need for Russia to give any consideration to the Ukraine.
