Tony_Tarantula on 26/2/2016 at 02:06
Quote Posted by fett
Most Kanye fans that I know in RL are teenagers and people in their early twenties who really have no contextual basis on which to consider him or his music on a larger scope. Everyone in this thread does (and has, so far). There's generally not a lot of thought put into the meta-connotations of what he does, no objective analysis beyond "I like it." Which is fine, but those are the ones more likely to buy into the hype.
Hence my earlier comment about how Media is an industry where demand is driven primarily by what the producers offer. I didn't go into that much detail, but one major reason for that is that they target types of people who are likely to have a positive opinion about things based purely off hype. One of those groups is teenagers.
Tony_Tarantula on 26/2/2016 at 02:08
Quote Posted by Stitch
Don't get me wrong, I don't give a shit whether or not you ever connect with Kanye's albums--
you're the one who is missing out on some of the most vital music being released right now, so it's
your loss--but when you piss all over a thread and say one wrong thing after another, it gets tiresome.
Argumentem ad Populim. Even when it comes to the arts that's a TERRIBLE argument.
Since we're on a gaming forum let me make this comparison: sure, just because Halo and Family Guy were incredibly popular in their time makes them the best game ever made and the best animated series ever made.
That's obviously wrong in those two formats so why is music different?
fett on 26/2/2016 at 03:35
I didn't want to get into that, but it's great how in the same sentence my opinion and experience is considered "one wrong thing after another" (last time I checked, opinions are subjective) but preceded immediately by the assertion that it's "some of the most vital music being released right now," which is stated as objective fact. Stitch, you do realize that you yourself mercilessly beat me over making statements like this years ago. And I actually appreciate it very much - I just hope you see the irony here.
demagogue on 26/2/2016 at 06:19
Of course there's subjective things and objective things one can say about a music scene.
Objectively Kanye has been making giant waves that are impacting the hiphop scene, just in terms of records sold, the sheer amount of buzz he generates, and even if he's only tapping into the zeitgeist as much as or more than he's trend-setting it, it's hard to deny that people talking about what the zeitgeist is, or musicians wanting to fit into it, are going to name-drop him or think of him as the standard against which their work fits, or everything coming out these days.
If I summed it up, I'd frame it as he's managed to package and brand a Millennial sensibility to pop culture generally and hiphop's place in it specifically. So that's (part of) the objective part.
The subjective part IMO is one's personal orientation to that sensibility and the sound or attitude that defines it. In those terms, at least, I can say part of my antipathy has as much to do with my alienation to the Millennial zeitgeist swirling around him. E.g., I see pop culture on a pendulum, or spectrum, between arrogant "me generations" and insufferable "us generations" and Kanye has ... how to say it ... perfectly managed to take the poles of each side, arrogance and insufferability (the best or worst of each, depending on your perspective) and meld them together, to create this "religion of Kanye"/"religion of feels" hybrid thing of which he's the messiah & martyr. It's hit a pop-culture nerve no doubt, but I don't like it. It's definitely not speaking to me. Its pandering to some mass emotional need that brings out the worst of the zeitgeist we're in.
Now I'm the first to say I'm more or less a refugee these days from what's happening in pop music (along with WETF is happening in US politics now for that matter). The "anti-establishment establishment" verve it's on is even dumber than what 90s "alternative" became. But then again, I've been largely studying bebop of all things recently, which is the poster child for music forms of total commitment that didn't lose a wink of sleep completely alienating the public & throwing itself on its sword in its quest to perfect its style. (Of course it wouldn't have mattered unless the style it perfected was the real deal.) So compared to that I'm not in any position to like music that plays to mob mentality.
Now if I were an writer on a popular music magazine or manning a college radio show, it's not like I'd leave Kanye out just out of spite. But my connection to music right now is just me personally, what I want to listen to on my train commute & what I want to play and record on piano and keyboard. And on those counts, there's an explosion of music scenes right now, probably unprecedented in history by far. There's not time to focus on all of them, so I'm going to stick to the ones that mean something to me, and those are probably going to tend to be quite alienating to public tastes but happy to be raising the middle finger to Millennialism ... the kind of music that makes you feel terribly guilty for writing insipid Tweets to bring the feels/encouragement to fellow-travelers or being dragged by your friends to a club or party and blowing a perfectly good Friday night you could have spent reading and brooding.
Yeah so ... subjective part.
Manwe on 26/2/2016 at 11:54
I still can't believe we have a whole thread dedicated to praising Kanye West's talent... on TTLG. I'm still waiting for someone to come around and say "haha got you all, I was just trolling!". I mean, I'm pretty sure the guy can't sing, can't write, and can't play an instrument or compose music. Hell, I doubt he can even read. He seems to have the IQ of an 8-year-old and he's with Kim Kardashian. Kim fucking Kardashian... The dumbest, most vapid person on this planet.
Chade on 26/2/2016 at 12:52
So demagogue, what music scenes are meaning something to you at the moment?
demagogue on 26/2/2016 at 13:47
Well, if you're asking, aside from jazz (Brad Mehldau & Hiromi always, punkjazz, Jazz Against the Machine etc, and the types that are so dyed in the wool fusion the term is going extinct, Bad Plus, Yaron Herman, Christoph Stiefels), what's happening in electronic music, the SynthPop revival, Chvrches etc, but especially on the chill end, chillhop, Carbon Based Lifeforms, CMA...the folk/blues thing going on, Hozier, the Civil Wars...
Then jazzy/lounge hiphop where I'll grant Kanye has his moments, something like Drive Slow or Flashing Lights up until until somebody opens their mouth, so it's not like I'm deaf to him. Edit. But he's not particularly standout for that sound, maybe he'll do a basic loop, but nothing breakout. I don't know if anyone now is doing much better than Thievery Corporation has been forever though.
I don't know. I'm not one to really ask about music because I also have folders for Iranian and Burmese folk and pop, Glitch, J-Surf and J-Chick punk, chiptunes, the really fucked up kinds of dark ambient, folk metal and cybermetal, and my biggest is still indie by a long ways. When I'm surfing for music, the average view counts are usually in the mid 100s low 1000s at best.
fett on 26/2/2016 at 15:28
Therefore my "Emperor is naked" comment. Causing change in pop culture is 80% right time/right place. Nirvana's musical talent, from a technical/musician standpoint was questionable, at best. Hell, the guy didn't bother to tune his guitar up half the time. But we needed someone to kill glam-metal and they were the anti-Bon Jovi. Right place/right time. Kanye has beneifted from a similar situation in hip hop and pop culture.
I can't speak to his appeal as compared to other artists, but objectively, among most musicians - and I mean musicians who work on a professional level - he doesn't stand up real well. He creates his own beats. What do guys like Dave Grohl, Neil Peart, and Bill Bruford have to say to that? What CAN they say? I play drums and just comp leted a 14 song album using drum loops and samples, some of the same programs Kayne namechecks. They do most of the work for you, and some of his stuff is really recognizable as canned loops that come with the software. Bass lines too. I guess I can credit him with assembling these things creatively? I've been in the "beat" business for 30 years, either behind a drum set or computer, and I'm saying that objectively, the guy ain't nothing special. He's a pro at marketing himself that way though.
The thing is, the average listener can't really knowledgably comment on stuff like this because they don't know anything about Cakewalk, Protools, or Vegas software. When I hear a Kanye song and I can go back to my laptop, find his beats, bass lines, and other samples, drag and drop, rearrange, and cop his song in about 10 minutes time, I have to question what he's doing that's so original. Granted he puts a twist on this stuff that is unique to him but objectivly, his song construction is a far cry fom the practice, deliberation, and effort that goes into something by Rush, Beck, Lacrae, Lamar, Taylor Swift, etc. There is no need to employ the art of mic placement, and certainly no need for the ear to capture and mix instruments artistically because alll of that is pre-produced before Kanye pushes a single button. These are details that *can* be compared and also what makes it so offensive when he thinks and convinces others that he alone is the brilliant mastermind behind his music. Most of it is borrowed, pre-made, and no harder to compile than copy and pasting the text I'm inputting right now. Again, none of this has anything to do with liking his music. But it speaks volumes to me about his own ignorance and ego when it comes to his own talent. People may like him, amd I do at times, but he's scantily and parading around the town square like he's wearing a newly tailored Gucci.
Renault on 26/2/2016 at 16:17
I've always thought the "I can play that!" argument was weak. There are lots of amateur musicians out there who can pick up some sheet music and belt out a famous song. The real accomplishment is coming up with the shit in the first place, IMO. There are also some great musicians out there who are awesome technically, but that make some really boring music at times (I'd put Rush into that category, which sounds weird, because I'm also a big fan of their early stuff, in fact most everything through Hold Your Fire). Being a lights out guitar player (for example) doesn't mean you can put any emotion or feeling into your music, necessarily.
So bottom line - you may think the stuff Kanye comes up with is basic and easy to recreate, but could you have come up with it in the first place? Obviously not, or you would have done it and made millions.
froghawk on 26/2/2016 at 16:37
^Very much agreed, Brethren.
