Twist on 19/2/2016 at 17:05
This topic fascinates me, but I think it might be more productive if people talked in more concrete detail rather than in vague abstractions. Stitch and henke: You appear to be at odds with most others. I think it would help if you supported your arguments or observations with more concrete examples. I'm fascinated by Kanye and his work, so I'd love to read these detailed breakdowns you've both threatened in this thread.
For example -- and please don't take this personally (really!): In Stitch's post, he writes with energy and confidence, but he leans on a series of colorful but vague abstractions to support his observations rather than specific, concrete details.
I'm referring to abstractions such as: disciplined cohesiveness, ramshackle charm, exploding with energy and ideas. Even "compelling car wreck in the absolute best way" sounds like a colorful bit of prose, but as an abstraction with no root in a concrete example, it's meaningless in a discussion with people who don't already see or hear things the way he does. It's the difference between writing in a personal journal and writing to communicate with another human being.
I'm shy and awkward enough to fear I've set myself up for some sharp insults with this post, and maybe I deserve them. But let me just say I'm posting this out of genuine interest, curiosity and respect. I don't mean to sound arrogant by voicing what may appear as criticisms. I mostly just see myself as a big awkward dork. I wouldn't bother to break out of my lurking shell and request more concrete details if you hadn't already earned my genuine respect during my years of lurking here.
I'm just trying to ground a fascinating and informative discussion in more concrete detail. It just looks to me like some people are talking passed other people rather than to those other people, probably without meaning to.
henke on 19/2/2016 at 17:42
Heh, no need to worry about insults. :)
As for a more detailed breakdown, that'll have to come from Stitch. I feel like I've said what I can say about Kanye/the album. And I'm not too well versed in the whole music dissection-dealio. There's a saying that goes "I don't know art, but I know what I like". That's me with Kanye's music.
Also I've had a couple glasses of wine so at any rate I'm in no shape to think to hard about this stuff right now.
Stitch on 19/2/2016 at 18:38
Quote Posted by Twist
This topic fascinates me, but I think it might be more productive if people talked in more concrete detail rather than in vague abstractions. Stitch and henke: You appear to be at odds with most others. I think it would help if you supported your arguments or observations with more concrete examples. I'm fascinated by Kanye and his work, so I'd love to read these detailed breakdowns you've both threatened in this thread.
I mostly ignored the comments from the Kanye detractors in this thread, because their argument has been (for the most part) remarkably out of touch and it would take far more words to explain why than what I'm willing to spill here. So someone honestly doesn't see the merit of a guy who has repeatedly changed the face of popular hiphop at least four times now? I guess not, but you've got lyrics you can quote out of context and roll your eyes at. Man, how can I resist?
That said, I'm happy to actually talk Kanye (or whatever) with someone like yourself who is open to it, although the specifics you seek are a lot more difficult to pin down in something as subjective as music. What exactly are you looking for--reasons why this album is worth listening to, or reasons why Kanye as a musical figure is more than just an egotistical loudmouth?
froghawk on 19/2/2016 at 19:43
I would also be interested in hearing more concrete examples. I am always open to re-evaluating any artist that hasn't totally clicked. Maybe that breakdown of 'Bound 2' would be a good place to start.
Quote:
I guess not, but you've got lyrics you can quote out of context and roll your eyes at.
Err? My argument was that lots of hip-hop has lines you can quote out of context and roll your eyes at, but that the best stuff provides the context to support those lines in a way that Kanye doesn't. But if I'm missing something on that front and there is a larger context to those lines that I just haven't gotten, then please enlighten me and I will re-listen through that lens.
Renault on 19/2/2016 at 19:56
I admit I'm dismissive of Kanye solely because he seems like a really awful person. Hell, I don't know his music at all, except for a few random songs I've heard on the radio over the years (none of which really got me excited). But I'd be very curious to know how he "repeatedly changed the face of popular hip hop, at least four times." That sounds like a fairly melodramatic statement, considering the guy has only been putting out music for 10-12 years. I'm not saying it's wrong either, but I'd like to know if that's a common belief in the music world, and why.
Stitch on 19/2/2016 at 23:59
Quote Posted by Brethren
But I'd be very curious to know how he "repeatedly changed the face of popular hip hop, at least four times." That sounds like a fairly melodramatic statement, considering the guy has only been putting out music for 10-12 years. I'm not saying it's wrong either, but I'd like to know if that's a common belief in the music world, and why.
It is, because he undeniably has. Each of his first four albums were influential and are widely credited with kicking off certain trends in popular hiphop. In fact, I can't think of a single other pop figure of the past decade who can possibly claim that.
I can provide more concrete examples, but I've got to go (for now) and said examples are a mere google search away!
froghawk on 20/2/2016 at 17:04
I think it's worth noting that changing the face of what's trending in the mainstream doesn't actually imply innovation. Kanye did heavily influence the mainstream, that much is undeniable. But was he doing something new? Not necessarily, but that's also not necessarily a bad thing.
Tony_Tarantula on 20/2/2016 at 17:53
Stitch, keep in mind that we're not talking about an industry where things happen dynamically. What you see is the output of major label business managers picking and choosing what types of songs they want to put their marketing dollars behind. Not that it's any kind of conspiracy, just the result of deliberate business planning in the same that McDonald's gets together it's finance, marketing, and other departments when deciding which new burger recipes get pushed out to stores and which get dropped.
Entertainment is not unique among the business world. Notice how, for example, the cell phone companies all got ride of unlimited data at the same time and now are all bringing it back at the same time? Or how almost all commercial banks tend to adjust their fees in the same way, at about the same time? That's no different from the same way that EVERY studio started doing largely identical superhero movies within the same short span of time.
It's because group think is rampant in most industries; it's easier to imitate success than to be creative. Doubly so in the world of big media publishers where consumer demand is largely a function of industry output, not the other way around as in most other industries.
Point is: Kanye's "influence" probably has a helluva lot more to do with unimaginative suits in conference rooms "obtaining buy in" and "leveraging core competencies" than it does any talent on Kanye's part.
froghawk on 20/2/2016 at 19:00
Your first paragraph is spot on.
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
It's because group think is rampant in most industries; it's easier to imitate success than to be creative. Doubly so in the world of big media publishers where consumer demand is largely a function of industry output, not the other way around as in most other industries.
I don't think it's an issue of group think so much as risk management. Large corporations are putting a ton of marketing money behind anything they push, and therefore don't want to take any risks - it's much safer for them to market things that have a defined demographic so they can safely predict sales numbers. Obviously this is also true of the movie and games industries to an extent.
I highly recommend the book 'Ripped' by Greg Kot, even if just for the first few chapters. It talks about how the decline of the music industry actually had nothing to do with piracy and very little to do with technology, and how it was actually caused by corporate consolidation. Big industry bought up all of the record labels, laid people off, then tried running the music industry like you would with any other business, expecting quarterly returns. But artists don't work like that, so that lead to the current risk aversion problem. Plus radio also got consolidated, so the combination of having far less worthwhile music pushed to the public and high CD prices (most new technology falls in price over time - CD prices raised for no reason other than greed) caused the public to buy less music and the industry to crash.
So it's true - 'influencing the mainstream' actually means influencing executives, advertisers and producers at this point, rather than artists.
froghawk on 20/2/2016 at 19:10
With that said, I think it's possible to make conscious music mainstream to a degree these days. Kendrick Lamar pulled it off by including some club production on his first record, along with using some common popular rap themes and turning them on their head just subtly enough to get radio play. That plus a number of guest spots for all sorts of different high profile but artistically bereft artists gave him enough success to get full creative control over his last record. This allowed him to release a socially progressive record that's musically entirely unlike anything else that's happening in the mainstream - an utterly brilliant strategy to get wide exposure for a great work of art.
And while it's not as extreme of a case, I think Kanye got away with something somewhat similar on Yeezus tracks like Black Skinhead and New Slaves. I think less people picked up on it because people have stopped taking him seriously (and it's harder to when he's throwing lines like 'I keep it 300, like the Romans, 300 bitches, where the Trojans?' into a serious political track), but he was trying and I give him credit for that. He even basically gave away the record to a ton of people, spreading some pretty subversive messages far and wide. I think the issue is just that he seems confused about whether he's part of the establishment now or against it, and that makes it hard for me to make heads or tails of a record like Yeezus as a whole. How are you supposed to take a song like 'I Am A God' next to 'New Slaves'?
