froghawk on 18/2/2016 at 17:39
Has anyone declared him the savior of hip hop besides him? He's a good producer, but who is arguing that he's the best? There are tons who are better - from classics like The Bomb Squad, GZA, Dr. Dre, U-Neek, etc. to newer people like El-P, Terrace Martin, Blockhead, Questlove, etc.
And that's why, to me, his records aren't really worth the time of multiple listens when there are countless records with better producers and FAR better rappers with more interesting things to say.
henke on 18/2/2016 at 17:44
Quote Posted by fett
That's not you excusing shitty lyrics based on him having occasional good ones?
Ah, no, but I can see how it might be interpreted like that. The "shit" I refered to is the ugliness of the lyrics, the "pretty things" are for instance when a gospel chorus breaks out.
froghawk on 18/2/2016 at 17:48
I think the disagreement is that many of us here don't see the downside of Kanye's lyrics as ugliness, so much as poor lyricism. The Run the Jewels example I mentioned is a rare exception in their lyrics, and they know it's dumb - it's essentially a troll effort turned feminist by bringing in a female rapper for the last verse/chorus and letting her objectify them back. Or like when Kendrick Lamar says something like 'I pray my dick grow big as the Eiffel tower so I can fuck the world for 72 hours', that serves a purpose in the story as it's rapped through the eyes of his teenage self and his meant to reflect his mentality at the time. The lines themselves are dumb, but the context completely justifies them and ultimately makes them clever. Plus such lines are used very rarely.
On the other hand, Kanye peppers almost every song with similar lines and seems to have no self awareness of the utter silliness of what he's saying sometimes, and provides no context to make such lines work.
fett on 18/2/2016 at 18:19
Quote Posted by froghawk
On the other hand, Kanye peppers almost every song with similar lines and seems to have no self awareness of the utter silliness of what he's saying sometimes, and provides no context to make such lines work.
Thank you - that's a way more concise explanation than any of my ramblings here. You can have flow out the wazoo, but lyrics, particularly in this genre, work well when either telling a story or celebrating your own hedonism, but throwing everything you have into the recipe doesn't work. Lil' Wayne's "No Problems" is hilarious, but notice that he focuses on one thing - it's silly, it's vulgar, and he doesn't try to justify it by pretending that it's anything more (at least within the song itself). Kanye thinks he shits gold, as it were, and a lot of people have bought into the hype without really examining just how badly disjointed his lyrics are. To me, that leaves a gaping void in some otherwise decent songs. Plus, he's overly enamored with the exploits of his own dick, which is getting a bit tired (and Sir-Mix-A-Lot's dick is a lot more entertaining, IMO). Then again, I'm not very objective because being a moderator, my dick is very small.
henke on 18/2/2016 at 19:10
Quote Posted by froghawk
I think the disagreement is that many of us here don't see the downside of Kanye's lyrics as ugliness, so much as poor lyricism.
Yeah we'll have to disagree on that.
faetal on 18/2/2016 at 19:52
Tastes differ, but I have to say that Bound 2 sounds kind of like one or two ok production ideas stuck on repeat with the variation being carried by facile lyrics. I can't feel much of a mood or a theme and it feels like they probably knew that shoving nekkid Kim on a bike would be enough to publicise it (maybe that's why she's there?). But I'm still thinking I'll give something a chance, so could you post a link to what you'd consider an exemplary KW track? I'm not generally a fan of the genre, but I do appreciate decent production - I remember really enjoying some Jay Z my house mate was playing few years back in a pure production geek way.
henke on 18/2/2016 at 20:19
I'd suggest you check out (
https://soundcloud.com/kanyewest) the two new tracks on his soundcloud. 30 Hours and No More Parties in L.A. are 2 of the album's best.
Stitch on 19/2/2016 at 01:23
I'm not sure I'd personally rank "30 Hours" as an album highlight, and in fact I find it baffling that he didn't cut it off after the three minute mark.
That said, the album is a compelling car wreck in the absolute best way. It lacks the disciplined cohesiveness of his previous work--love or hate Yeezus, but that album knew exactly what it wanted to do and it did it perfectly--but The Life of Pablo isn't without its ramshackle charm, even if I would have loved a few more bangers to even the sloppy affair out. It certainly is an album absolutely exploding with energy and ideas, even if they don't always add up to more than the sum of their parts.
I do think there's an argument to be made that Kanye's loutishness has finally crossed a line that he's historically steered clear of (at least in his music). Kanye is a lot easier to defend when he shows some misgivings and repentance (My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy) or when he seems to be playing it up to cartoonishly embody the villain that he is often portrayed as (Yeezus). The Life of Pablo lays bare Kanye's faults in a way that rings far more true and therefore damning--a perfect example is the oft-quoted Taylor line, which is a lot more funny within the context of the song, even if it is shitty and personal and makes me cringe.
Still, Kanye is undeniably one of the more fascinating and talented people operating in the pop/hiphop music sphere, and the guy records albums that aren't just collections of tracks but are instead front to back creative statements of purpose that invite months of unpacking and analyzing as its various charms unfold over time, and The Life of Pablo is absolutely no exception.
Stitch on 19/2/2016 at 01:26
Also, if I'm feeling generous, I may return at some point to walk you all through why "Bound 2" is actually absolutely brilliant.
henke on 19/2/2016 at 06:26
Quote Posted by Stitch
I'm not sure I'd personally rank "30 Hours" as an album highlight, and in fact I find it baffling that he didn't cut it off after the three minute mark.
The beat and the lazyily sung
30 hours... refrain really does it for me. I didn't like the extra 3 minutes of him and 3000 just hanging out at the end at first, but on subsequent listens I'm liking it more and more for some reason. Anyway the soundcloud version is a minute and a half shorter and cuts out the ending chatter, so it's less exessive.
Quote Posted by Stitch
Also, if I'm feeling generous, I may return at some point to walk you all through why "Bound 2" is actually absolutely brilliant.
VINDICATION! :D
I was starting to doubt my own judgement with all the hate that song was getting ITT, but if Stitch likes it, it's a good song. CASE CLOSED
