froghawk on 18/2/2016 at 06:32
Pretty strange argument. It's almost like saying perfect albums would be better with more filler tracks.
Obviously rap and poetry are very different media. It is pretty funny to quote rap lyrics and attribute them to classic poets, though, and vice versa.
'Eatin' Asian pussy, all I need was sweet and sour sauce' - Robert Frost
Kanye is frustrating specifically because he has some great ideas lyrically and makes true statements in the media every so often, plus his production is great and his flow is serviceable. The lines quoted above coming from someone with nothing worthwhile to say wouldn't be irritating at all - it's his potential and lack of self awareness that makes them irritating.
Contrast that with something like Run the Jewels - I don't mind hearing them write a song with a chorus that goes 'Got my dick in your mouth all day' because they're operating at peak brilliance most of the time and clearly aren't taking themselves seriously when they pull stuff like that. They even got the audience to sing along with the chorus live then followed that by saying 'Ha, I just got you to sing the dumbest chorus ever written!'. They know full well when they're being dumb and they make it genuinely funny that way.
Sulphur on 18/2/2016 at 07:04
I think sitting through a challenging work of art to reach an eventual catharsis is a pretty valid way of occupying one's time, especially if said work has something to say that makes it worthwhile. Kanye's lyrics don't quite qualify.
Full disclosure: I listen to this stuff for the music first, and the lyrics second, because most of the time it takes more effort than I want to put in to get past the sexually frontloaded gang bang bullshit to get to the core message, which is usually some variant of an existential crisis. If the lyrics work in concert with the music and add deeper shades of meaning to the whole, that's a great song as far as I'm concerned. If they don't, I can still enjoy the music. But if the music doesn't work, I am not going to listen to your shit unless you're a lyrical bastard who paints images with words, like Dylan.
henke on 18/2/2016 at 07:59
The catharsis isn't in the lyrics, but in the mood (for lack of a better word) of the song.
Quote Posted by froghawk
Pretty strange argument. It's almost like saying perfect albums would be better with more filler tracks.
No, not filler. Filler is just the abscence of anything noteworthy. The ugly lyrics aren't neutral nothingness, they're negative energy that make the positive parts all the more potent. Would the chorus in the middle of On Sight be quite as beautiful if it wasn't surrounded by all that ugliness?
Then again...
I suppose On Sight might be just as effective with just the abrassiveness of the music and not lyrics that make your skin crawl. Maybe.
PigLick on 18/2/2016 at 09:05
I am pretty sure Kanye is sitting on a throne made from kardashians, stroking a fluffly white cat ala bond style and chuckling to himself.
demagogue on 18/2/2016 at 11:57
@Henke, raw (in the good sense) isn't the word I'd use for that song, but I'll grant that over-production is not really the problem I have with Kanye's music.
It's more that you can feel the attitude going into decisions ... and it's not an attitude that connects with me, even if I can objectively see what it's going for... I should be explicit I'm not talking about Kanye's personal attitude or antics. I never care much about musicians' personal shit, but the attitude coming through the music. It's not just its attitude, but that it's trying to stamp itself on the vanguard (or a few years ago's vanguard) of the milieu of the times, the sound of which is not working for me.
It's getting into the realm of the ineffable, and now I'm losing wifi access so can't even poorly explain it, but I might post or edit in something later to be more specific.
fett on 18/2/2016 at 12:57
ITT Kanye fans twist themselves into a corkscrew trying to explain why it's okay that his lyrics are shit (lyrics being pretty much the main ingredient that drives the recipe for good hip hop and rap). Common, Lacrae, and my 14 year old can work circles around this fool. He's famous for fucking up the Grammy's (which no one cares about except One Direction fans) and while that makes him interesting, it doesn't make him innovative. Subjectively, it's fine if you dig his stuff. But let's not pretend he's the second coming of Tupac, Chuck D, or Dre, cuz he ain't.
henke on 18/2/2016 at 13:29
I don't think his lyrics are shit. Just ugly. But most of the praise for him ITT is not for his lyrics, but his production. As a Common fan I'd think you could get on-board with that. He produced Common's "Be" album, which was pretty great, no?
Quote Posted by demagogue
the sound of which is not working for me.
Alright, fair enough.
fett on 18/2/2016 at 13:59
He did, and it does, especially that album. But guys, great production isn't all that hard to come by. This is the part where I sound like an asshole name-dropper, so brace yourselves.
I've sat in on so many "pro" recording sessions I can't name them all. A few: ZZ Top, Evanescence, Seven Dust, Kelly Clarkson, Carrie Underwood, Daughtry, P.O.D., Tora Tora, Galactic Cowboys, We Are The Fallen, King's X. All of those records sound great even though the music on about half of them isn't my thing. You know what albums they use to balance speakers for mixing production? Winger - Pull. Jellyfish - Spilt Milk. Metallica's Black album (yes, still). Anything by Brendan O'Brein (Soundgarden, King's X, Train, M5, Mastodon, Pearl Jam, etc.). Bob Rock's stuff is a huge benchmark for comparison at pretty much any point in his career. The problem is, I bet 90% of the people who are enamored with Kanye's production haven't even heard most of this stuff, but it's what engineers use (and some of these are nearly 15 years old). Really, up until Tupac and Dre, rap records had questionable mixing and very little mastering, mostly due to the slap-shot release schedule of labels like Def Jam and Death Row. So when someone like Kanye comes along in that genre and actually pays attention to mixing and more importantly, mastering, it sounds like a million bucks next to most of his competition. But it's at best on par with what most pop, rock, and country production uses as a baseline.
But yeah, some of you are actually saying, "Haha, maybe he's trolling and thinks it's funny to get people singing about fucking a walrus (or whatever stupid shit he's on about this year)." I don't think so. I think he went into horny 14 year old mode and thought about fucking a girl on the sink and then scratched his head and thought..."hmmm...what rhymes with 'sink?.....OH!" Trying to read anything more into than that just reveals how desperate his fans are to justify his juvenile and insipid lyrics so they themselves don't feel like douchebags for liking it. Hey, if you think it's a great lyric, just say so. Don't try to make him into some lyrical genius to justify it. Hell, I'm a massive Beatles fan, but some of their lyrics are just ridiculous. So own it, don't make excuses for it because it gives him way more credit than he deserves next to the luminaries of his genre. The Humpty Dance and Can't Touch This are more imaginative and funny that "huh huh...drink rhymes with sink" and "what's another synonym for dick?" Yawn. :rolleyes:
henke on 18/2/2016 at 14:23
Quote Posted by fett
But yeah, some of you are actually saying, "Haha, maybe he's trolling and thinks it's funny to get people singing about fucking a walrus (or whatever stupid shit he's on about this year)."
Uh, no I don't think some of us are saying that. I just looked the thread over again and I didn't see it. Kindly point it out.
Secondly, I assumed you knew this, but (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_production) production in hip-hop isn't quite the same thing as production in a lot of other music genres. It's not just about capturing the band's music in the best way, rather it
is the the music. The beats, the use of samples. This is something Kanye does very well.
fett on 18/2/2016 at 17:00
Umm....
Quote Posted by henke
A lot of the guy's lyrics are reprehensible, yes. But I'm not sure these albums would be the same without them. Would the pretty things still be as pretty if we didn't have to wade through shit to get to them?
That's not you excusing shitty lyrics based on him having occasional good ones? But yeah, I was thinking of froghawks Run the Jewels example - my bad.
Production varies between all genres (country music needs to dial the vocals way the fuck back these days. Jesus. Alanis Morrissette is covering her ears. Wtf?) I don't take any issue at all with the claim that Kanye is a *good* producer. But the hip-hop community treats him like the second coming of George Martin or something. It's good - but lots of people are good. I honestly think production is where his real talent lies, but the supposed complexity of what he does pales in comparison with 20 year old Arrested Development and Bone Thugs albums. He's got good ideas. My God, Common's "Be" album is brilliant, granted. I just don't get the messiah complex, and the way he's convinced his fans that he's multi-talented beyond other people in the industry. There are tons of good producers in hip-hop, and I highly suspect the reason he's singled out is largely owed to his persona, antics, and visibility. It's a fun train-wreck to watch, but separated from those three things, he'd probably be standing in the line up with the rest of the good producers, not heralded as the savior of hip-hop.
