fett on 27/2/2016 at 19:21
Honestly, that's why I keep listening to him and buying his albums - it seems like so many people love him, and I'm marginally entertained. You never know when the light bulb may come on (if one exists) and you start loving something you hate. But usually if I'm just ambivalent about an artist or album, it doesn't change much with repeated listens. For whatever reason (because gods know I'm too old and sick to keep up with trends at this point) I find myself gravitating toward things that don't have much popular appeal. I think the last "big" names I got into after the fact were Chris Stapleton and Modest Mouse. It takes a while for things to sink in, but I've been buying Kanye albums since the beginning and he's a 50/50 hit or miss for me, just in sheer terms of wanting to re-listen. I guess that's what playlists are for, but in his case (as Stitch pointed out), he's very album oriented so it's a little weird listening to some of his stuff outside of the album itself.
Renault on 28/2/2016 at 00:29
Quote Posted by fett
It's weird to me that twice now ITT someone has played the "well, you can't do it better" card, which is absolutely irrelevant to the conversation, and art criticism in general. Of course I can't - probably no one here could.
I was one of those. I don't think it's irrelevant though, because it was in response to you saying essentially that Kanye's music was easy to create and anyone could do it. I'm disagreeing with that.
zacharias on 28/2/2016 at 01:13
I have nothing much to add about Kanye, as I've honestly never heard his stuff and don't intend to. He seems like someone who's being sold to us (just like his wife), self promoting at the speed of light. I'm just not interested. If that makes me an old fart, so be it.
Gotta say I found Fett's post a bit weird when he dismissed Nirvana though as just a 'right place, right time' band whilst later praising stuff like Taylor Swift (eh??). I don't think anyone has ever claimed Kurt was the greatest technical guitarist, but he strikes me as someone who had a definite vision for his songwriting and didn't compromise that. Hell I'm not even a huge fan of Nirvana but certain songs strike me as amazing bits of song writing (e.g. Heart Shaped Box).
Also going on to praise Dave Grohl. Foo fighters is another band I just never bothered with, as the intensity just seemed nowhere near what Kurt did. Still, I'm talking from a point of complete ignorance admittedly, as I never listened to them much.
demagogue on 28/2/2016 at 01:46
Nirvana is a textbook example of a band that didn't move me much at the time they first hit because I guess overexposure and when people mindlessly flock to something that used to be a red flag for me.
I mean, you know when you have the kind of friends that get super drunk and play a song so they can howl and break a plate over their head and the like. The scene turned me off more than the music at the time.
But I recovered them much later & liked their songs after the hype disappeared, when I started just listening to the sound on its own merits, and the fact Kurt himself was down about the mindless fame he got, and was more interested in being a champion for underground punk, which inspired me some.
Then later still I put them in perspective and now I think they're a respectable band that had a really solid concept that still stands, but nothing magic about the music and their lead was a bit of a manic-depressive drama queen that would be tough to be friends with but flashes of real charisma it's hard to stay too mad or alienated.
Edit. Point being I won't write off the possibility Kanye's music may get recovered for me, but it'll end up being put in perspective too.
Jason Moyer on 28/2/2016 at 03:34
The "anyone can do that" card is a pretty big red flag in any attempt at critically discussing any kind of art, period.
It's all pointless anyway since there are only 3 genres of music: hiphop, post-rock, and navel-gazing post-modernist retro nostalgic bullshit. And genres 1 and 2 largely fall into the third category, too.
fett on 28/2/2016 at 16:15
Quote Posted by Brethren
I was one of those. I don't think it's irrelevant though, because it was in response to you saying essentially that Kanye's music was easy to create and anyone could do it. I'm disagreeing with that.
It would be more accurate to say that not *anyone* can do it, just that at at basic level, if you work with drum software and pro-tool loops packages and stuff, you realize very quickly how much hip-hop is dependent on the artist being able to take pre-performed data and do something interesting with it. I have to give Kanye props for being able to do that in a way that has truly struck a chord with the mainstream.
Refraining from hyperbole as much as possible, it's also much more accurate to say that the genre makes it largely impossible to compose from scratch - from the very first Sugar Hill Gang recordings, hip-hop has always started with drum samples. That tech has become so sophisticated in the last 30 years, not to mention flexible and user-friendly, that it doesn't require the skill some people imagine is necessary to do it. That's totally irrelevant because skill level doesn't equate to talent or having "it" - being able to create something from it that people dig.
All I can say is that, having been around and involved in music production for as long as I have, there's a big difference between being in the studio with a jazz, pop, or prog group and watching a hip-hop production schedule. It doesn't make one better than the other. It doesn't make one better than the other. It doesn't make one better than the other. (Yes, I'm saying that three times because I continue to be mis-understood as trying to assert such a thing). Subjective tastes aside, it's so much easier to produce the later because the lion's share of the work has already been done - it's right there in the box. Kanye assembles the data in a unique way that maybe other can't or don't do. But there is definitely a consensus that he's brilliant because he "makes his own beats" (his words) - in reality, there's no such thing, unless he's physically sitting behind a drum set, recording those beats as he plays them to be sampled and manipulated later. It's the difference between using a freezer pie crust and making the dough yourself. I can't tell the difference, but my grandmother could, and she wasn't impressed with the freezer crust.
I hope that clarifies somewhat why Kanye (and honestly a lot of artists) are hit or miss for me - if that makes me a music snob, so be it. I find the same ambivalence among most musicians in my world who are aware of the tech behind what's happening in the creative situation. In the end it doesn't matter to most people - Nirvana and U2 have garnered millions of fans with three chords and guys like Eric Gales and Ritchie Kotzen can't get arrested. It's no secret that a large part of that is due to marketing, image, etc. as it's been from the beginning of the commercial music industry.
froghawk on 28/2/2016 at 17:30
Eh? Using drum SAMPLES is not the same as using drum LOOPS. You can make your own beat using drum samples by programming your own pattern - no one is forcing you to use a loop. I dont see any difference between programming your own beat and playing it on a kit in terms of writing - you didnt come up with the drum kit sounds (but make them unique through how you tune it, what heads you use, how you hit, etc.) and you didn't come up with the sample sounds (but make them your own by processing them). So no, I don't buy your argument at all, and I've also spent a lot of time in studios with artists in many genres.
froghawk on 28/2/2016 at 17:43
People in pretty much every genre today are demoing ideas for drummers (or themselves, if they're drummers) to play in Superior Drummer or other similar software (partially because everything has become much more home studio oriented). And it takes more time to do that than to just sit down at a drum kit and physically play it if you've got a basic knowledge of how to play drums (and aren't writing something insanely challenging, of course). So please, tell us - how does that not count as making your own beats?
fett on 28/2/2016 at 21:13
Yeah, I guess you're right, I'm splitting hairs too much. I know the difference between loops and samples. I think of Kanye more as a loop guy because I've stumbled onto some of his tracks in old Soundwave and Cakewalk add-ons, hence not so much "making his own beats" as much as co-oping someone else's thing for his own purposes. I'm sure he does both, and hip-hop, of all genres, has a strong history of re-purposing just about everything, so what's the difference, eh? I just programmed all the drums for an album using samples, and yeah, it's a lot more time consuming than physically performing them. It's not a little weird to you though, that he seems really proud of doing this when (as you said) everyone is demoing stuff like this lately? No question, he's got a unique method of putting it all together, I just don't see it as something that requires a highly developed skill set. What he does from that certainly is. It's probably just semantics on my part, but what I'm saying (and communicating it badly) is that in a sense, many people are able to do the same thing, even if they can't turn it into what he does. I think I've made it sound like anyone can be Kanye, but I'm talking more about the technical aspects of his studio work, which he's often lauded for - my observation is that those things are the basics. The distinction is bogged down by my previous posts and this is more a conversation to have with an engineer, because it really has no bearing on the end product, and again, goes back to me not being overly impressed with that part of it.
froghawk on 28/2/2016 at 21:20
I can't say I particularly care what any artist thinks of their own work. Being one myself, I know how skewed that can get, so it doesn't feel relevant to me.
Yes, Kanye gets too much credit in some circles and not enough in others. And frankly, that also means nothing to me. I care about how I feel about and respond to the music, and can easily ignore the hyperbolic responses on both sides. I don't see why I should make judgments on anything based on the responses of others, followers or haters.
