Dr. Dumb_lunatic on 1/9/2005 at 09:50
Quote Posted by Karkianman
Thats ignoring the point that if you are making an action/adventure game with more buttons than a controller can offer, its probably a little too complex to begin with.
But that's kind of the point, no? DX was far more cerebral than a "pick up teh biggest gun you can find and shoot everything that moves" game.
More of a stealth RPG with capacity for action if necessary. I mean with the right aug setup, you CAN play it like quake, but that's by no means the only way, and in fact, is far more difficult (at least for me) than a slower, more tactical approach. Which yes, generally needs quite a few buttons.
Whereas with IW's slightly clumsier 'streamlined' interface it often feels more like a case of simply shooting people because it's the least annoying way of dealing with them. Again, at least for me.
I mean, I liked IW, but it just felt a bit hollow in comparison to the original. Like the 'depth' was something they couldn't port to console.
Karkianman on 1/9/2005 at 12:38
Actually, the gameplay of IW was a ton deeper than the gameplay for dx. Its just that the magnitude of depth and the incentive for it were alot less. In any given micro situation in DXIW you had more options than in DX. Its just that the macro element was severely limited by size of levels, and there was little incentive to do micro things creatively.
Anyway, in my post I mapped out all of DX's controls onto an xbox controller. Therefore, DX is not too complicated. System Shock 2, however, even on a PC keyboard, WAS too complicated. The controls were way to bad.
TheGreatGodPan on 1/9/2005 at 16:32
Quote Posted by Karkianman
a ton deeper [...] magnitude of depth [...was] alot less
Huh? I'm sure you have a valid point in there, but the way you phrased it makes it seem somewhat contradictory. "deeper" tends to mean more "magnitude of depth". I haven't played IW, but I know enough about it to toss some disagreements your way. There is no water or swimming skill in the sequel. This eliminates gameplay possibilities that existed in the first. There are no skills period, so you can't focus on being good with either rifles or heavy weapons. I almost never used biomods in the original, focusing on skills instead, (I did think the idea was still cool for the setting) but I believe there are fewer mods in the sequel than the original (15 compared to 18, I believe) and 5 slots rather than 9. This is just a role-playing quibble, but it would have been nice if you could attempt to live up to the Templar ideal with no biomods at all, but you're required to install one. There is one area in which I'll admit IW beats DX: the freedom of choice when it comes to killing people. You can kill nobody, or everybody (at least if they have a name).
The only problem I had with SS2 was that it didn't pause when you were managing your interface. I thought the controls rocked otherwise. It's method of getting items off corpses was better than DX's in that it was manual rather than automatic, but annoying to try to do in real-time when something is trying to kill you.
Matthew on 1/9/2005 at 18:38
Which was probably the point.
Karkianman on 1/9/2005 at 21:11
Let me clarify. DXIW, situation by situation, has more depth. But it is much harder to connect an overarching emergent strategy. Theres less of a choice about how you get places, and instead theres a choice about what you do when you get there.
Anyway, the biomods in IW are overall MUCH better and more usefull then the ones in DX. DX had some major redundancy issues and useless ones. For instance, silent feet or run fast? Well, crouching with run fast you have quietness and you move faster than normal, so its a no brainer. Microfibral muscel didnt have too much practical use. Environmental resistance was worthless, since you were forced through radiation maybe 2-3 times? And how many times were energy weapons used against you? So energy shield is out. Aqualung was just... retarded. You were almost never in any situation where breathing was a problem. The EMP shield was also kind of pointless, for the same reason as energy shield. Thats 6 near useless augs. That leaves 12 fairly useful augs, but still some of them arent that terrific.
Now in DXIW, the Hazard drone is useless, for the same reason as environmental resistance. So that leaves 11 extremely useful biomods. And I mean useful. Every single other biomod has tons of uses in many situations. Electrostatic discharge at lower levels added electric damage to melee attacks, and at higher levels turned bots to your side. So you could punch out the laser beam transmitters, or cameras, or turrets, or spider bots. Bot domination was wonderful. You could take control of a turret or bot, and blow the hell out of things without being blamed, or you could disable turrets and cameras. You could throw a spiderbomb, dom it, and run it under a laser grid, and lure an enemy back. The enemy turns the lasers off before passing through, you exit the spider and slip past the lasers before the enemy turns around. Strength enhancement let you pick up massive items and hurl them at enemies, damaging bots, and it upped your melee attack. The health leech drone breaks down corpses and sends the energy to you, killing 2 birds with one stone if you are stealthy. It also can kill live animals to feed you. And I could go on.
Also, water was made too big a deal of. Just like in the Thiefs, functionally it was extremely underutilized in the game. Atmosphericly, they probably could have used more, but its not that big a deal.
moop on 1/9/2005 at 22:57
Although this thread is now mostly off-topic, I still want to address the assertion about DX containing "useless" augmentations. The designation of "useless" depends on how you play the game.
Both leg-slot augmentations (speed/stealth) are extremely useful. Yes you can crouch to move quietly, but that takes longer, and with a group of patroling guards, you might not have the time to reach them if you want to kill them quietly. Play through DX again with the combat strength and stealth augs, and a Dragon's Tooth Sword or other Low-Tech weapons, and you'll find some parts ridiculously easy compared to the brute-force approach. The speed aug helps you jump over obstacles and through windows, prevents falling damage, aids in evasion during combat...
Environmental resistance protects the player from toxins, too - poison darts are used by numerous troops. If you need to use a gas grenade in an area which is too small, you can prevent damage to yourself.
Microfibral muscle isn't one of my favorites, but if you want to move large crates and barrels as part of exploring, it can be useful. Energy shield doesn't protect only against plasma... think of Gunther's flamethrower, or any explosive used against you (explosive barrels, TNT, LAMs, GEP/LAW rockets...).
Anyway, I'd recommend you play DX through again, and pick different skills and augmentations... you'll discover it really puts a different spin on the game.
Lastly - I've played through DX without ever drawing a weapon. Technically, I did use a crowbar to open crates, but I never hit anyone with it. I killed Gunther and Anna with their killphrases, and Howard Strong in the Silo by dropping an explosive barrel on his head. Really, give DX another play-through.
AxTng1 on 1/9/2005 at 23:19
Quote Posted by moop
Really, give DX another play-through.
Stealth as a habit is all very well, but don't forget about the "Skeleton Key" GEP Gun, for when you want to preserve lockpicks :p
TheGreatGodPan on 1/9/2005 at 23:53
I seem to remember GEP ammo being rarer than picks. I sometimes used LAMs when there were already enemies near something I wanted to open, but that was only if I had already moved used all the TNT in the level and there weren't any Men or Women in Black I could lure over. After I got the Dragon's Tooth though I just used instead for most stuff (I maxed out low-tech after that).
Another thing I thought was cool: lockpicks were seperate from multitools. You sometimes used tools to open doors, but they worked on a variety of electronic gizmos, making your obstacles more complicated than "How am I going to open THIS door? Kill someone and get a key? Find a password? Break down the door? Hope there's a vent?". That's a lot of solutions, which is nice, but it's even better if you have other stuff to do other than open locked doors.
moop on 2/9/2005 at 00:12
Quote Posted by AxTng1
Stealth as a habit is all very well, but don't forget about the "Skeleton Key" GEP Gun, for when you want to preserve lockpicks :p
...or a sniper rifle with maximum Rifle skill, or DTS with maximum Low-Tech (to which tGGP alluded). :cheeky:
Karkianman on 2/9/2005 at 01:22
Um, moop, the augs still werent that useful. The number of times they offered any realistic advantage were minimal. And you usually had to pretty much try and find a way to use them. The biomods in DXIW were on average much higher quality, and they did more things than just stat adjustments.
And quietness? Was completely useless. If you chose speed, you could crouch and move faster than you did while running normally completely silent.
