Briareos H on 12/6/2013 at 17:14
Yep, it's the "headshot 40 XP" guard. I'm glad shouldering is in.
I see I was also wrong about pick-pocketing, it does give you some gold (not always, though, which is a nice addition).
Judith on 12/6/2013 at 17:16
Also:
Quote:
Completely player-driven skill advancement - Maybe the most obvious departure from Thief, there is now an experience system for skill advancement.
I'm pretty sure we haven't seen it in the movies, was that confirmed in the commentary? If I understood correctly, XP will be used for a scoring system at the end of the mission. I saw Polish site saying it will be used for purchasing abilities, but level of game journalism in Poland is so lousy that I wouldn't put my trust in this source :P
Briareos H on 12/6/2013 at 17:24
I've seen a french gaming site saying the same. Although they have the same kind of reputation, it makes you wonder what exactly the XP is for. Regarding scoring, in one of the videos, the designer says that loot is used for that purpose.
Springheel on 12/6/2013 at 17:31
Quote:
My feeling is that a level editor is a given
I don't remember the source, unfortunately, but I read a quote from a dev that said there would not be an editor. Anyone else see that?
Chade on 13/6/2013 at 01:08
Quote Posted by Briareos H
One point I forgot in my initial list (I'll add it back later) is the
supernatural AI (zombies, ghosts and burricks) which are all very probably out, burricks being confirmed not in.I think it's worth mentioning here, in yellow, the comments regarding supernatural elements in the Q&A after the gamespot presentation. He didn't say much, but did mention that they had "something", and wanted it to be a surprise.
Quote Posted by Briareos H
Now, for what I think needs to be changed ... Those two points are
minimalism and
player agency ... Then, there is control, or player agency, as the second facet of immersion. Non-contextual actions, the absence of in-engine cutscenes or forced third person view have one reason: in addition to reducing the number of abstraction layers, they never shift the control away from the player.
Yeah, I think you can pretty much kiss good-bye to minimalism in the AAA space (EDIT: unless the underlying core gameplay is very simple of course). That's quite interesting, actually. I was a little surprised the industry turned out this way. I assumed that minimalist games would be easier to use and become more popular.
On reflection, though, this is a story that has played out all across the software world. Early (more technically capable) users appreciate having a small orthogonal set of commands available to them. When less technical users start using products, though, they find it easier to have lots of commands available, and it then becomes a significant UI problem to ensure that all these options are available to the user without resulting in an overwhelmingly cluttered interface. This leads to contextual actions, and so forth.
Your definition of player agency is WAY to narrow. Player agency is just the ability of the player to make meaningful decisions within the context of the game at hand. Low level control of your character is a small part of that, but the larger part (at least as the term was used at LGS) is the player's ability to formulate his own plan for progressing through the level. As far as I can tell from the footage so far, the player still has plenty of room to do this.
EDIT: Oh, btw, Briareos H ... nice post! :)
Briareos H on 13/6/2013 at 10:22
Quote Posted by Chade
I think it's worth mentioning here, in yellow, the comments regarding supernatural elements in the Q&A after the gamespot presentation. He didn't say much, but did mention that they had "something", and wanted it to be a surprise.
I heard that yesterday, it is an interesting mystery. I think you're right, I will add it to the list. I am certain that they can't do without a supernatural element, it's already confirmed by the fact they want to introduce focus as part of the story, and the hint-hint wink-wink discussion about what exactly the Heart of the Lion is. I am much more doubtful about supernatural AI though but, come to think of it, keeping players interested to wrap up the story will probably require something bigger than human faction vs. human faction.
Quote Posted by Chade
Yeah, I think you can pretty much kiss good-bye to minimalism in the AAA space (EDIT: unless the underlying core gameplay is very simple of course). That's quite interesting, actually. I was a little surprised the industry turned out this way. I assumed that minimalist games would be easier to use and become more popular.
There is a whole debate to have about that, and it might boil down in part to the fact that when a 'regular' gamer plays a solo console game, it's generally 2 metres from the TV with a bad sound system. The days of playing face against the monitor, headphones on in a dark room with no one around are mostly gone, this image carries forth even today the negative overtones of an asocial nerd, something hardly any AAA developer wants to be associated with.
Other genres do not carry those stigmata because they can't be played any differently (strategy games for instance), and are indeed associated to niche, hardcore and elitist markets. It can be frustrating for those of us who used to play like that and I'm glad that there are games that manage to pull through (Amnesia is a nice example), I don't know if big publishers will ever want to take the risk to approach that market.
Quote Posted by Chade
Your definition of player agency is WAY to narrow. Player agency is just the ability of the player to make meaningful decisions within the context of the game at hand. Low level control of your character is a small part of that, but the larger part (at least as the term was used at LGS) is the player's ability to formulate his own plan for progressing through the level. As far as I can tell from the footage so far, the player still has plenty of room to do this.
The larger definition is something I am aware of but I chose not to touch it too much, partly because it would have required extending my wall of text, partly because there is still leeway for EM to do some things right. I definitely put forth "player agency = control" in most of my post, still you can see that I'm also talking about the "have the player go seek information by himself and react accordingly" angle which is the real core of player agency, involving the player. I'm especially worried about how objectives will be treated, the sense of personal discovery and the subsequent actions taken by the player are very, very important. Being given information by the 'game' rather than by the 'world' is both a superfluous layer and a way of making me feel meaningless. Another example is the minimap we saw in yesterday's interview: points of entry were clearly identified as markers on the map, what purpose would there be to explore more if I'm sure those entry points are the only ones available? In shorter words, the player has to formulate his plan given the information at hand, as you said, and I'll add that this information must be provided by the world rather than by the game. When it is something as simple as traversing the gardens, you can probably rely on the visuals and patrol routes alone, so it's fine, that's what we saw in the video. When it is on the scale of a whole level, it's important for player agency not to know where to go and make discoveries. It's very possible we won't be able to really know until we play the game for ourselves, though, but if someone from EM happens to stop by here, please read and consider.
Briareos H on 13/6/2013 at 10:35
I would like to add that writing all of this had the cathartic effect of actually making me interested in how the game will turn out. GG guys.
Chade on 13/6/2013 at 11:48
Quote Posted by Briareos H
I am certain that they can't do without a supernatural element, it's already confirmed by the fact they want to introduce focus as part of the story, and the hint-hint wink-wink discussion about what exactly the Heart of the Lion is.
I didn't think about the Heart of the Lion. Wow. That would be great if it was true, as I am imagine that the level showed at E3 is probably one of the earlier missions in the game (Garrett doesn't look to be a significant part of whatever is happening in the city yet). So if the Heart of the Lion has any sort of supernatural significance to it, then I'd say there's a decent chance that there will be supernatural elements throughout most of the game, even if they are mostly hinted at in the background.
Quote Posted by Briareos H
The larger definition is something I am aware of but I chose not to touch it too much, partly because it would have required extending my wall of text ...
Sure, fair enough.
Quote Posted by Briareos H
I'm especially worried about how objectives will be treated, the sense of personal discovery and the subsequent actions taken by the player are very, very important. Being given information by the 'game' rather than by the 'world' is both a superfluous layer and a way of making me feel meaningless.
I have to admit that I'm somewhat naively assuming these markers can be turned off, mostly because in my experience quest markers one of the first things you can turn off when the games lets you toggle HUD elements, and we know we can toggle off lots of HUD elements. Admittedly none of what we've seen so far supports my assumption, so ... we'll see. :erg:
bukary on 13/6/2013 at 16:13
Quote Posted by Briareos H
Fast-paced moves for quick transition between shadows: dash and swoop.
- I am not sure of what the swoop exactly is. The dash is a fast movement between shadows, in first person. In Machinima presentation Stephane Roy uses "dash" and "swoop" as synonyms. Isn't that the same thing in the game?
BTW, great post, Briareos!
