the iPhone - TTLG Forums

David on 18/4/2009 at 09:27

Ok, well, I guess fair enough, then.

I've tinkered with the Windows 7 beta, which is a vast step up from Vista, but I feel they need to almost step back and take a look at the whole thing. It still seems very 'bitty' as though the designers and programmers of individual sections didn't communicate or have a plan on how things should look and operate. Consequently it doesn't feel very 'gelled'. It's not a bad OS at all, but not as good as OSX, or XP (from a UI and usability point of view) in my opinion.

mazzortock on 18/4/2009 at 14:59

Quote Posted by Matthew

DRM has been mentioned a couple of times here and it's a bit of a fallacious argument - we're not talking about the music on the phone after all (and hey, iTunes plus and ripped CDs = no DRM on mine anyway).

Ok, so let's talk about Apple super cool FairPlay license that you must accept to use and buy with iTunes:

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairPlay)

Read the first words, thanks.

Quote Posted by David

With hardware I can kind of see your point, but it's no real difference to Dell, Acer, HP etc.

There is difference on approch also on the hardware side. Let's go talking about BootCamp blob (a preboot locking proprietary software to allow, or not and therefore control, to install other OS).

You can't find same insane things on a Dell or HP.
Contrariwise CPU, ram, disks, etc etc. the whole core hardware are exactly the same of a normal PC IBM-compatible. But for the brand name, marketing, mass-hype, and all the proprietary, jailed and locked software that is artificially limited to work only on that machine, and you pay 2x o 3x more for the EXACTLY the SAME hardware. Cool.

Quote:

You are wrong. AAC is part of the MPEG2 and MPEG4 specs.

I don't even said something different about specs, i know very well AV standards (it's part of my job in the real world).
I only said that also today, on the past was far far worse, you have to buy "iTunes plus" songs to avoid the direct drm the lock to iPod devices. ITunes plus costs a lot more (sometimes also +50% it depends), so if you want to be free to do what you want with the music that you pay for, you have to pay more. IMHO is absurd. And, anyway, you have also ALL the songs legally passed by itunes wartermaked, that's good for the privacy and profiling people, very cool.

And, i want to remeber this one before that someone say something about: Removing DRM from some songs on the Majors music catalog, was a decision made by MAJORS it self, like EMI. To remove DRM, was decided by EMI, and *not* by Apple. EMI removed DRM from *all* the e-shop on the net, not only on iTunes.

Quote:

It sounds like you are thinking of ALE (Apple Lossless Encoder), which the iPods can play, but which is not sold on the iTunes store.

On the past, recent past, ALL the songs on iTunes was totally not readable on non-apple devices, i remember, very cool. Now you can read these files, BUT all digital watermarked, and ONLY if you pay more (a lot more, +50% as said).

Quote Posted by thefonz

Yeah I meant more the hardware side. The Apple apps store is a narnia of very very cool and innovative programs

...

Quote Posted by RavynousHunter

Also, on the topic of Linux, I wouldn't trust it as far as I could throw Linus Torvalds or his condescending look. Not only would I have to compensate for all it's different kernels, but I also don't like the idea that my drivers could've been written by some adolescent kid in his mother's basement over a weekend, unless I knew that kid personally and had some pretty serious faith in his abilities.

I really can't understand your POV. These "adolescent kids" are normal people that like to contribute to share knowledge and make a better kernel. Their contribution is qualified and judged only for their work and what they do, not age, not apperance, not economic level or graduation, and IMHO it's right. Anyway, Chief kernel developers are very trusted and valid people, high valued on the highest professional IT level, they are not kids. Linux it's now pervasive, you even don't know how mission critical tasks are done every single second in the world by this opensource piece of work developed with the active contribution of hundreds of people. I can recall Military grade tasks, Governance tasks, Highest security tasks, World NetWork tasks, Supercomputers tasks, Linux is in million and million of embedded devices in the world (PNA, Routers, TV, decoders, mp3 players, etc etc). If this software is the first choice for these mission critical tasks, i think it's not at all managed like a toy for kids, as you say.

Quote Posted by Renzatic

[snipped]
The open source guys needs to swallow their pride and pony up on at least some basic marketing savvy if they want their programs to be used widely. It doesn't have to be anything big, just a descriptive name will do. Pithy anagrams and clever names might garner you fans in the scene, but it won't get maw and paw to move away from Office 200x.

You made some good valid points here, i partially agree. Yes, on the opensource world it's also important to make things usable for all the people and not by a geek restricted clan. Is important too to get some visibility on projects that already works (you right recall Gimp, OpenOffice, etc etc), but IMHO they do not have to make the same mistake of the proprietary world: a good software have to be chose by people for his features, quality, usefulness, and not for billion dollars marketing campaigns and hypes that more or less impose a status symbol on people. They must develop some kind of consciousness raising to this kind of themes, and this can be done, IMHO, only with a better science scholarisation of people. Of course, as always, my 0,02.

David on 18/4/2009 at 15:10

There are no DRMd songs on the iTunes Store anymore. Until the record-labels mandated a pricing change a couple of weeks ago (some got cheaper, some got more expensive) they were priced the same as the lower-quality DRMd versions.

If I wish to triple-boot my iMac (OSX, Windows, Linux) then I can. The reason Boot Camp is required, is that the Intel Macs utilise EFI, instead of the decades-old BIOS. Windows XP (and, I believe pre-SP1 Vista) has no idea about EFI, so something is required to emulate the BIOS. That is Boot Camp. So no, the hardware is not actually the same as the "PC IBM-compatible" machines. In a fundamental way it is very different.

The iTunes songs are not watermarked. They do include the account name that was used to purchase, and in some case the name, in a meta-field. It is extremely trivial to strip them out if you don't want Apple to find out that you share your favourite Shakira tracks over P2P. Using a meta-field is not watermarking. Watermarking would be subtly changing the audio to identify the account.

If you are going to argue your point, please make sure your information is up to date and actually correct. It is extremely frustrating to read such uninformed crap.

Vivian on 18/4/2009 at 15:16

Also, its a minor point, but every time you say 'super cool' you put my teeth on edge.

It's pretty trivial to un-DRM itunes purchases if you want, as well. Just convert em to mp3 or whatever (or some fancy new codec if you're one of those gimps with one record who can only listen to it on whatever hard/software the latest graphs indicate is giving you more pleasure).

EvaUnit02 on 18/4/2009 at 15:29

Whatever uniqueness Mac hardware had was gone the moment that they switched over to x86 architecture. Now they're just PC parasites shilling out their highly restrictive OS on PCs with overly inflated price tags.

Why would I get Macbook when I can get a similarly spec'ed Dell or Toshiba laptop for far less money?

mazzortock on 18/4/2009 at 15:42

Quote Posted by David

Well done: "couple of weeks ago".

So what was before "couple of weeks ago"?

Hint: not readable by *all* the player non-Apple.

Quote:

If I wish to triple-boot my iMac (OSX, Windows, Linux) then I can. The reason Boot Camp is required, is that the Intel Macs utilise EFI, instead of the decades-old BIOS. Windows XP (and, I believe pre-SP1 Vista) has no idea about EFI, so something is required to emulate the BIOS. That is Boot Camp. So no, the hardware is not actually the same as the "PC IBM-compatible" machines. In a fundamental way it is very different.

Bootcamp + EFI, it's only a new proprietary crap to have control on hardware, IMHO. Of course you can disagree, but to have a proprietary and closed Bios+bootmanager i don't think it's a value-add for the ultra expansive hardware that you pay, it's a minus.

And i said: "core hardware" are exactly the same.
CPU, Ram, Disks, etc etc. are the same. A Mac today is exactly a PC machine, with some proprietary gadget on it.

Quote:

The iTunes songs are not watermarked. They do include the account name that was used to purchase in a meta-field.

I call this always some kind of watermarking. Or if you like it more, "digital signed" songs. The base idea it's the same: identify in some way the buyer to control. If i buy a CD on the market, they don't grab my account information (that is like grab my personal information).

Quote:

It is extremely trivial to strip them out if you don't want Apple to find out that you share your favourite Shakira tracks over P2P.

It's trivial as you want, but the majority of the people don't know about that. The FairUse DRM on it's conceptual base it's bad, for me.
And P2P has really zero connection with this argument, because if marking songs and FairUse DRM limitations are done to avoid the P2P phenomenon, it's two times absurd and stupid.

Quote:

If you are going to argue your point, please make sure your information is up to date and actually correct. It is extremely frustrating to read such uninformed crap.

I'm sure for what i say, David, you can disagree.
But i can say also that it's a lot frustrating too, to see Apple fans to extremely defend his brand life God, believe me.

Quote Posted by Vivian

Also, its a minor point, but every time you say 'super cool' you put my teeth on edge.

What's the problem with "supercool" ?
It's not about you, it's about the concept of the product. I talk about the product, not about you that buy these products. You do not have to be offended by my words, really, you are not Apple.

Quote:

It's pretty trivial to un-DRM itunes purchases if you want, as well. Just convert em to mp3 or whatever (or some fancy new codec if you're one of those gimps with one record who can only listen to it on whatever hard/software the latest graphs indicate is giving you more pleasure).

This idea, and his apparently covenience, is well diffused on Apple-Users, but Apple people are not stupid guys: iTunes sell only Lossy music (compressed). That means that if you want to remove watermarking, FairUse DRM, and the whole limitations, you have to Re-encode to a new codec, and you get lower (sometimes a lot lower) quality item, and not the same file that you payed for.

Simply not?

David on 18/4/2009 at 15:49

Oh god, I don't want to be the guy who posts for ever counter post, but anyway.

Quote Posted by EvaUnit02

Microsoft have been playing this angle recently, Eva and yes, it is true. You can get Windows and Linux based machines that are cheaper than Apple's. You can also get ones that are much more expensive. Well isn't that just utterly surprising.

Here are two articles on Microsoft's recent campaign.
(http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2345199,00.asp) The first is from John C. Dvorak, a big Window's user and article writer on how bad these comparisons are.

(http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/04/11/microsoft_flames_macs/) The second is from The Register who crunch some numbers. You will see, that at the higher end, a not-quite-as-good Dell will set you back $1200 more than the Apple machine. For that I could get another Mac.

As for the highly restrictive OS? Other than not allowing it be installed on machines that aren't Macs (aside from a brief Clone period in the mid-90s) this is how it has been since the day Apple started. I'd argue that Windows activation policy (also installation-related) is equally, and arguably more, restrictive.

Quote Posted by mazzortock

Well done: "couple of weeks ago".

So what was before "couple of weeks ago"?

Hint: not readable by *all* the player non-Apple.

Reading comprehension please. I said the pricing changed a couple of weeks ago.

EFI is not really new. It's 8 years old, and it's not Apple, so proprietry? No. Closed? Yeah, sure.

Do you use a completely open source BIOS on your computers? I mean, how far do you go? Do you, or would you be willing to, use an inferior Open Source piece of software, rather than use a superior, but closed-source version? For example, graphics drivers. ATI and Nvidia have been opposed to releasing specs and code to allow open source graphics drivers to be written to properly access the hardware. I am aware that parts of the drivers have been opened up, but I am also aware than binary drivers have also been provided by these companies for proper-full speed 3D acceleration. Not on par with their Windows versions, but still, much better than the Open Source drivers.

Also here's one for you:
I use a Mac at home and at work. I also use Windows on the Mac on a daily basis, and Linux, again, on a daily basis. (and all at the same time). Open source is a great thing, some great stuff has come out of it. Firefox is a once such program that I use on a regular basis, but the way you are going about promoting it is utterly terrible. You sound like you are foaming at the mouth while mashing the keyboard rapidly. While I doubt this is the case, this really is the way you are coming across.

Also it's really funny.

Vivian on 18/4/2009 at 15:49

Quote Posted by mazzortock

But i can say also that it's a lot frustrating too, to see Apple fans to extremely defend his brand life God, believe me.

OH MY GOD SHUT UP

Kolya on 18/4/2009 at 15:54

Quote Posted by David

There are no DRMd songs on the iTunes Store anymore.

Since March 2009. Nice that Apple finally got it down, but it's no accomplishment.

And while "watermarked" may be the wrong term, the fact that you can strip out your name/purchase account from all your files' meta fields is no favour or feature by Apple either. It's still ridiculous scare tactics.

This always amazes me: Every Windows user will happily bash away at Microsoft for the shit they make. But Apple users always act like shareholders or novices in some starry eyed sect.

EDIT: And then there's something else going on here: You all noticed by now that mazzortock is from Italy and his English isn't great. Yet you cling to certain expressions like "super cool", "watermarked", "brand life god" and throw them back at him with an insult. That's just weak.

I suggest you visit the next Italian Linux forum and explain your point there and we'll see how far you go.

Ulukai on 18/4/2009 at 16:02

I know that wasn't directed at me, Kolya, but personally I couldn't give a toss about Apple or, Mazza, being Super Cool ( whatever that is ).

I do, however, like the iPhone, because it's a great product, albeit with room for improvement. I do not own any other Macs, and arrived at that conclusion on the merits of the device itself.