ZylonBane on 8/4/2021 at 14:47
Any list of immersive sims that includes Bioshock is automatically suspect.
Jeshibu on 9/4/2021 at 21:26
What criteria is Bioshock not meeting?
Pyrian on 9/4/2021 at 21:55
Can't stack crates.
demagogue on 10/4/2021 at 06:39
I think Bioshock was the first game that crossed the threshold into Imm Sim 2.0. I think Halflife 2 instilled some tropes into the whole field of FPS that basically required major studios to present a cinematic experience and practically strangled the whole imm sim philosophy, as in players wondering wtf they were supposed to do and why wasn't the game providing a very controlled experience and throwing up its arms and shouting "are you not entertained?" at them around every turn?
And Bioshock was the first game post HL2 that internalized that HL2 spirit, making this controlled cinematic experience, while still trying to resuscitate a lot of imm sim tropes: open level design, multiple approaches, player customaization, etc. (Okay, there was also Stalker, but GSC was kind of in a world of their own along with other Eastern European studios.)
And I think the major lesson of Bioshock is that the two philosophies don't really mix very well, as in they're at cross purposes. Making a cinematic experience and players feeling gratified by the game progression call for techniques pretty much the opposite of what you want for an imm sim.*
And of course then Arkane took that model and ran with it, pretty much defining the field of imm sim 2.0 with Dishonored & Prey, etc. I mean I had a great time playing them, but I can see how they raise the question if these two models can really mix well and how their sales wouldn't be great exactly because of the remnant imm sim features in them. And since I'm playing it right now, Control strikes me as exactly the kind of game that waves its hands at imm sim tropes (same list as above), but are so dominated by the controlled experience philosophy that it's a nominal imm sim at best and plays a lot more like HL2 than System Shock 2 or Deus Ex.
I think this is where we're at now, in this weird space where imm sim 2.0 games are technically in the air, but not really gelling. And now we have this space of indie studios going back to basics, but I haven't played enough of them to have a strong opinion about this development yet maybe.
* I haven't played the later BS's yet, but just by watching some videos, I think already by Bioshock 3 it'd basically drank the HL2 koolaid.
ZylonBane on 10/4/2021 at 06:42
I'll let some random internet guy answer that question:
Quote Posted by "Warren Spector"
A lot of people describe BioShock as an immersive sim and as the spiritual successor to games like System Shock. I describe it as more like – there’s an expression – kissing cousins. It’s similar in some ways to a System Shock game, or a Deus Ex, or an Underworld. Ken Levine is one of the most talented people in this business, and one of the best writers. But if you boil it down, I think he’s more interested in telling his story than we are. We’re much more into the player telling his or her own story. Whereas BioShock is is very much Ken’s story, and it’s a great one. But it’s fairly different than what we do.
And regarding the above ImSim2POINT-OH nonsense about Dishonored:
Quote Posted by "Warren Spector again"
Dishonored is a fairly traditional immersive sim, which is to say that they’re about empowering players. They were clearly inspired by Thief and Deus Ex, which is really cool, and I think they do a great job with empowering players, so no beef there.
(
https://www.pcgamesn.com/warren-spector-fallout-dishonored-zelda)
Jashin on 10/4/2021 at 08:27
Quote Posted by Jeshibu
What criteria is Bioshock not meeting?
I'd say BioShock 1 boiled the player choices down to which weapon would you like to use - not unlike other shooters where you can choose between the assault rifle or the shotgun, with BioShock 1 it was this ability or that ability. Some times you can combine 2 abilities. It's still somewhat I-Sim-esque because you didn't need to kill everything that moved.
BioShock 2 had 2 guns akimbo, which was an improvement on 1 and moved the series back toward I-Sim a slight bit. The levels were better too. But somehow that was more panned by critics and players.
BioShock Infinite abandoned any pretense of trying to be an I-Sim. There were no story choices or player choices - it's kill all or no progression.
ZylonBane on 14/4/2021 at 16:23
Looks like this will involve none of the original developers and have different gameplay from any previous Bioshocks, so... yeah, just cashing in on the name since Ken is done with the series.
Starker on 16/4/2021 at 09:04
Smells like another one of those live service games.
heywood on 16/4/2021 at 14:53
Sounds like it's going to be part open world, part shooter, part RPG. Maybe something like Outer Worlds or CP2077.