Aja on 18/12/2023 at 21:25
They did, and it's called Disco Elysium.
heywood on 18/12/2023 at 23:50
Quote Posted by Anarchic Fox
A factor of 1.9 still takes "a few million dollars" to "a few million dollars."
That's only one factor. Like I said, you couldn't release a commercially successful imm sim today with an engine, art, and assets like that. I think you have to be at least AA by today's standards to attract more than a small niche audience.
Quote:
There's this unspoken assumption that the creation of great games is only possible within a narrow timeframe, after which history moves on and the prerequisites for greatness change. Why, exactly, couldn't another group of college kids start a commune or a studio with a few million bucks in trust fund money, and create another masterpiece?
Because the prerequisites for greatness have changed. And the industry has changed.
Anarchic Fox on 19/12/2023 at 02:22
Quote Posted by heywood
That's only one factor. Like I said, you couldn't release a commercially successful imm sim today with an engine, art, and assets like that. I think you have to be at least AA by today's standards to attract more than a small niche audience.
This is contradicted by at least two dozen indies. Do you need a list?
Quote:
Because the prerequisites for greatness have changed. And the industry has changed.
MrDuck, where are you? Someone needs a spanking. :angel:
heywood on 19/12/2023 at 12:45
Just give me one recent example of a commercially successful imm sim made to less than AA standards.
Another point for perspective... Thief was a AAA title back in the day, funded and heavily marketed by Eidos.
demagogue on 20/12/2023 at 05:57
Gloomwood and Shadows of Doubt are basically being made by individual devs at a pretty basic level, and those seem to be doing well, even with the shortcomings. We could debate how commercially successful they are.
I think earlier I was trying to argue that it's possible with individuals or small teams, but their complexity just makes it a particular challenge for them. On the other hand, there are also some cases where small teams seem to even thrive on complexity, and in some ways it may even be the better route for them, if you think about cases like Dwarf Fortress and Caves of Qud.
Starker on 20/12/2023 at 07:26
I mean, it's much easier to focus on complexity, if your graphics on the low end consist of the alphabet plus some assorted symbols you can find on the keyboard and on the high end of a tileset with a 18-color palette.
Anarchic Fox on 20/12/2023 at 08:42
Heywood: I missed the fact that you specified "imm sim" in your remark. A reading comprehension failure on my part. Sorry about that. For those specifically, I only know Demagogue's two examples.
Quote Posted by demagogue
I think earlier I was trying to argue that it's possible with individuals or small teams, but their complexity just makes it a particular challenge for them. On the other hand, there are also some cases where small teams seem to even thrive on complexity, and in some ways it may even be the better route for them, if you think about cases like Dwarf Fortress and Caves of Qud.
I do think you're right that immersive sims are more challenging to create than most other types of games. I just don't think this challenge means that only the big corporations have a chance at creating them.
heywood on 21/12/2023 at 20:11
No worries. I did mean imm sims specifically. I think they are more difficult to design and balance, and we've had our expectations raised by some really excellent ones.
I've had some fun times with indie imm sims like The Dark Mod and Neon Struct. The latter is like a cross between Deus Ex and Thief that has gotten the Jony Ive treatment and stripped down to the barest essentials. But both games appeal to a pretty niche audience. Nobody I know outside of TTLG has ever heard of either one. I also enjoy some of the total conversion mods for old imm sims.
Anarchic Fox on 22/12/2023 at 01:57
Oh, Neon Struct! I got interested in that many years ago, but forgot about it before it actually came out. Thank you for reminding me about it!
Jason Moyer on 22/12/2023 at 10:03
Neon Struct is really good. I wish there were some way for him to do another game like that but with a budget/team.