Shadowhawk on 23/7/2002 at 03:04
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I don't really get the point of this episode, either. Maybe it affects you ethics rating or something.
It sure had an effect on me. After this little discovery, it turned me completely off to Everrett and his schemes. At the end, I screwed him and didn't want his ending. (fine, no REAL effect, but still one of those thing you have to consider).
The Kurgan on 24/7/2002 at 20:02
This had an effect on me aswell. Finding Lucius actually made me choose the Illuminati ending. I hated Everret alot more of course, but I kept Lucius alive because I imagined that I would revive him myself once I was in power. And if Everret tried to stop me, I would just kill him because he's almost like Page. Not as psycotic but a baddie nonetheless.
D'Juhn Keep on 26/7/2002 at 21:54
Just so you know, "Good old Lucius" was a co-leader of MJ12 with Page and Everret. Then, I imagine, Bob Page took sole control.
King Ronald on 27/7/2002 at 17:28
Speaking of the moral/ethic thing....
I played Deus Ex, and yes, I killed people. I didn't just shoot every living thing (and robot), I only killed people who in my opinion were "bad" and I had the right to kill, in my own egotistical judgement. I shot Walton Simons, Joe Green, the MJ12 troopers and blew up Bob Page in cold blood, because I thought they were unsaveably evil, and deserved to die for the suffering they caused. I didn't WANT to kill Maggie Chow, Anna/Gunther, Manderley and the NSF troopers but I had no choice. Gunther sets you on fire the moment the conversation finishes in the cathedral, with no option to reason with him, Anna would have been a DELICIOUS ally, (imagine going through Area 51 with her and her Assault Rifle, eh?) but she was a complete god-damn psycho-bitch who tries to rip your eyes out the moment you blink towards the NSF, so there was no option there. Manderley would have lived if he had said "sorry", but he went for his pistol, so BLAM, that's him gone, and as for the NSF, there was no way to explain to them that you wanted to ally with them, so I had to shoot them. In fact, I must have been really good at shooting them, as the moment the game ALLOWED me to be NSF, then they all vanished. Damn.
So anyway, does my style of play make me a bad person? I don't like to think so. I always gave every man (woman or monster) a chance to live, but at the end of the day, what am I meant to do if they insist on levelling the wrong end of a Gep-gun at me?
The Kurgan on 27/7/2002 at 18:37
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Originally posted by King Ronald Speaking of the moral/ethic thing....
I played Deus Ex, and yes, I killed people. I didn't just shoot every living thing (and robot), I only killed people who in my opinion were "bad" and I had the right to kill, in my own egotistical judgement. I shot Walton Simons, Joe Green, the MJ12 troopers and blew up Bob Page in cold blood, because I thought they were unsaveably evil, and deserved to die for the suffering they caused. I didn't WANT to kill Maggie Chow, Anna/Gunther, Manderley and the NSF troopers but I had no choice. Gunther sets you on fire the moment the conversation finishes in the cathedral, with no option to reason with him, Anna would have been a DELICIOUS ally, (imagine going through Area 51 with her and her Assault Rifle, eh?) but she was a complete god-damn psycho-bitch who tries to rip your eyes out the moment you blink towards the NSF, so there was no option there. Manderley would have lived if he had said "sorry", but he went for his pistol, so BLAM, that's him gone, and as for the NSF, there was no way to explain to them that you wanted to ally with them, so I had to shoot them. In fact, I must have been really good at shooting them, as the moment the game ALLOWED me to be NSF, then they all vanished. Damn.
So anyway, does my style of play make me a bad person? I don't like to think so. I always gave every man (woman or monster) a chance to live, but at the end of the day, what am I meant to do if they insist on levelling the wrong end of a Gep-gun at me? This is the way I played it aswell. The only people I didn't kill are the cops and the UNATCO troops, although i did enjoy wasting drug dealers.
This may make me a murderer, but I killed the bum in Battery Park who said "Please kill me! Anybody!" I felt so sorry for him and he had a painless death of course. Does this make me a bad person? I don't like to think so.
darkwanderer on 28/7/2002 at 15:48
i think the point is is that being JC denton, billion dollar augmentation device created to kill and control, you are still human and are dealing with human problems of value judgement and ethical code. JC denton is no idiot, he read his philosophy books. If anyone one of us were in his shoes (which we are, via game play) how the heck would we rule things and in what favor? the gaem presents a picture of the world. do you like it? no? well, look here at these options. make these choices and change the faces of the three wierd sisters (the fates). JC can handle himself, he can defend himself from the consequences of his actions and of others. Can you and i respond or defend well against the gov't of the world playing the game as they do? what can we do about all this hodgepodge?
King Ronald on 28/7/2002 at 17:09
Hmm....
I dunno. I suppose this will always make me the enemy of the sneaks, but if someone is begging me to kill them, and I've played through the game and I know that they won't get their medicine in time, then I think it's perfectly okay to kill them, as long as it's quick, clean and painless (i.e, a pistol shot to the back of the head as he walks off, as opposed to disecting him with a crowbar).
Equally, if someone is a "bad" person, then I think it's okay to kill them, because that way good wins out. I know this doesn't apply to Deus Ex, but in a game called Thief 2, there are several levels where you go sneaking around a base containing a religious cult called the "Mechanists". I won't go into great detail, but these people arn't very nice at all, killing people and trapping them in a horrible zomibe-like state to serve them, and so I look at it from the perspective that these people deserve to die, because they are bad. Lots of people in the Thief forums, however, are adament that killing anyone is wrong, because all life is sacred (or something). Now, who is right (can there be a right?) in this situation?
Difficult stuff.
The Kurgan on 28/7/2002 at 19:48
Yeah, Deus Ex is changed the way I look at enemies in games altogether. I'll always wipe out terrorists, Nazi's, drug dealers and anybody I consider 'bad' in a game. I didn't kill one person in the Thief games because, well, I was a thief! And it was before I played Deus Ex so I didn't concern myself with the ethical dilemna of killing a person.
And I don't agree with 'killing anyone is wrong', because the death sentence is exactly what Britian needs right now.
gbayles on 29/7/2002 at 14:41
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Originally posted by King Ronald Speaking of the moral/ethic thing... and as for the NSF, there was no way to explain to them that you wanted to ally with them, so I had to shoot them.It is quite possible (actually fairly easy) to avoid killing any NSF at all.
King Ronald on 29/7/2002 at 17:10
Yeah, okay, fine, it IS POSSIBLE to knock out everybody in Deus Ex, or tranq em, so long as you have reasonable specialization towards stealthy items. You then must play Deus Ex like a level of Thief, except in Thief the sneaking was better, the AI was sharper, you had special "sneaky" gadgets that were invaluable to your cause, and were definately up against bad folk (I'm refering to Pagan Gods who wish to cover the world in darkness and nightmare, killer cyborgs that rip apart human flesh and psycotic, mace-wielding religious fanatics who want to napalm the entire planet) at specific points, with no um-ing and ar-ing over what to do. In Deus Ex you have extremely poor-quality equipment, you arn't anywhere near as good a sneak as Garrett (the star of Thief, for the uninitiated) no matter how many upgrades you have (and you have to be a complete and utter FOOL to choose "silent running" (virtually the only "pure stealth" upgrade) over Run fast (tactically useful) and Jump high (enabling easy acess to items and enemy-base-entrances that would otherwise be out of reach)) and to cap it all off your work-mates laugh at you/tell you off and don't give you cash if you do go the sneaky route. I mean, come off it - first level Thief, you get water arrows, a blackjack, a sword and broadhead arrows, flashbombs, healing potions and comedy Dennis Leary voice-overs. This makes cracking the particular guard-filled-edifice that much easier. You are up against medieval peasants with pig-stickers and poor intelligence, so doing the stealth thing is a snap. First level Deus Ex, however, you are up against roughly 35 crack terrorists, with body armour, high-calibre automatic pistols, security cameras, impossible-to-kill-without-certain-items-and-very-deadly robotic tanks, laser tripwires and drone machine guns. Oh - and they're guarding a hostage as well, just to complicate matters.
Get the point?
Deus Ex's major criticism, aside from the crappy (harsh but true) AI and basic graphics was that (and I'm quoting gaming-magazine-god PC Gamer here) it "isn't as good a shooter as Half-Life, and isn't as good a sneaker as Thief". There. S'true and all. Deus Ex is aiming for the pinnacle of excellence (and all my prayers go towards that they shall suceed) and for the sequel must be:
a) A better shooter than Doom 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Unreal 2 and NOLF 2 put together, if the player wants it to be that.
b) A better sneaker than Thief 3, Metal Gear Solid and Splinter Cell put together, if the player wants it to be that.
If it does this, adds scintillating graphics (highly likely with the Unreal Warfare engine), cutting-edge AI (again, likely with the whole shadows/sound/floppy corpses thing) then it will actually acomplish its remit (IMO) and be the best bloody game ever made in the entire industry, and should sell millions world-wide. Now, that is a pretty tall order, but I have to say they can do it. It might even get 96% this time. And, if it does that, then I will sneak around. Because then the sneaking will be just as valid, interesting and well-done as the shooting. Unlike now.
