The God Delusion - TTLG Forums

SD on 13/1/2007 at 14:44

Quote Posted by Dr Sneak

ViAs for male circumcision being a sign of God's wisdom-it seems to be rather useful

Then why didn't he just design us without foreskins in the first place? Wouldn't that be the genuinely wise option?

Quote:

the universe itself shows it was designed

How?

Dr Sneak on 13/1/2007 at 14:55

Quote:

Boy, I sure wish God had decided not to creat HIV and STD's and all that. Life sure would be better.

Of course he is only trying to punish homosexuals and other impure folks so I guess we should give him a pass.

I have never said, nor do I recall anyone else saying here that God created STD's to punish people. HIV would be no different than any other viral organism out there, it's our own out of control sexual behavior that spreads infections like that and makes it into an issue.

fett on 13/1/2007 at 15:00

Quote Posted by Strontium Dog

If God/Yahweh does exist, a quick read of the Old Testament should be enough to convince anyone that God is a pretty evil entity.

Stronts, I know I'm usually antagonistic toward you about statements like this, but I honestly do believe you're a pretty intelligent guy. If you've got the attention span to read Dawkins, you really need to do some more theological research into the 'evils' of God in the OT. In some ways it will support your argument, but also keep you from making such uncharacteristic sweeping statements like this one that horrifically understate the complexity of Jewish history and religion.

As to your original question, I've never been much a fan of Dawkins because in the past, most of his arguments against the existence of God are easily shot down by C.S.Lewis, Lee Strobel, etc. Dawkins is a lightweight compared to guys like Dan Barker and some of the Free Thinking crowd.

Speaking as someone who has been 'cured' of religion, it was no philosophical enlightenment that did it. Frankly, most of the atheistic writings on the subject are flawed in that they never seem to understand the enemy (the Bible) very well, and therefore they present the same strawman arguments over and over. That 'God is evil' being the main one - since the Bible teaches that God in fact controls and utilizes evil for his purposes. Most of the 'evil' acts they complain about involve temporal issues which serve a greater eternal purpose for all of mankind (if you believe the theology) and therefore the argument is moot in the scope of God's overarching purpose for the nation of Israel.

EITHER WAY, my 'cure' came by lack of evidence of the supernatural - particularly the NT concept of the 'power of the Holy Spirit' given to each believer that supposedly changes them from within and makes them more Christ-like (i.e. compassionate, honest, self-sacrificing, forgiving, etc.). Personally, I've found that apart from a few rare individuals within the 'church' (speaking universally) this change simply does not happen. Christians ultimately show themselves to be exactly the same an non-believers in their hang-ups, phobias, psychological problems, family dysfunction, ad infinitum.

My conclusion being that just as atheists cannot be swayed to Christianity via a well worded intelligent argument against the existence of God, but typically arrive via some type of personal 'enlightenment' or group conditioning, likewise, it's doubtful that Christians will be swayed toward atheism unless they face for themselves the glaring lack of any supernatural power accompanying this belief in a deity. You have to understand that for the individual who spends a lifetime studying the Bible, God and his economy make absolute sense both philosophically and theologically. This is the crossroad that I came to - what do you do when the whole thing fits together with an almost supernatural logic and design (speaking of the Bible), yet, none of it's supernatural claims ever manifest themselves personally in the lives of individuals? This is the chink in the armor IMO. Even then, many stay 'in the fold' because they'd rather follow their heart than their head. This too is dishonest because the Bible exhorts believers to think for themselves and challenge the claims of God. Sadly, very few have the mental energy to do such a thing for themselves.

BEAR on 13/1/2007 at 15:12

Oh my. Im gonna let this thread get nice and ripe before I read it, see you monday oh great thread. Im gonna savor this one.

Laser Eyes on 13/1/2007 at 15:13

Quote Posted by Strontium Dog

Okay, fair enough, that's your belief. But what is it that convinces you that the world was created by the Abrahamic God Yahweh, and not Zeus, or Baal, or Odin, or Brahman? One might well say that we are both non-believers; I just go one deity further than you do.

I wrote an article about the proof that the Bible is God's word. You'll find it here:
(http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=29908)

mopgoblin on 13/1/2007 at 15:33

Quote Posted by Dr Sneak

If it helps with bad shit like HIV, I'm sure it helps with other STD's as well.

HIV may have nasty effects and be difficult to resist, but if I recall correctly it's not particularly contagious. I have heard/read that circumcision also helps a bit with some forms of herpes, but I don't think it's enough to make it worthwhile, even if you could ignore the major counter-argument about consent. After all, you're only lowering the probability, so you just need to have more sex and you'll eventually hit the same chance of infection - geometric distribution, etc. Indeed, one could make the argument that circumcision <em>encourages</em> unsafe sex by reducing the perceived thread of HIV. Furthermore, I'm not sure if the research is reliable, as I can think of a few logical and statistical traps one could fall into, and I haven't yet had a chance to read a detailed description of the methods they used (incidentally, I can't get your link to work). Anyway, compared with the combination of regular STD tests, proper condom use, and perhaps that new cancer vaccine, it's clearly an inferior option. The other non-religous reasons don't really work anymore either - regular cleaning is easy if you have a source of clean water, and phimosis can almost always be treated with steroid creams.

Regarding faith and the design of the universe, the universe clearly has to be "designed" to support things similar to human life given that human life exists. If the universe was poorly designed for human life, there wouldn't <em>be</em> any human life around to remark on how well/poorly things were set up. Is this what you meant, or is there something else that appears to suggest a designed universe?

Regarding the more serious STDs (and diseases in general), I guess one could argue that they're designed as an unpleasant and somewhat ironic form of population control, but why would a competent and non-malicious god create diseases that don't knock people out of the gene pool? The same question applies to parasites - why create such creatures, or even allow them to exist?

Josh68 on 13/1/2007 at 15:43

The funny thing about 'God' is that death takes us all in the end. 'So what?' you say well, the fact that in the end we succumb means that we are defeated in the most final way come any analysis. Murdered, car wreck, disease, old age, somehow somewhere we will fall victim to something. That means there is something greater than us, that thing that made life this way, that thing that eventually makes us all aware of what it feels like to lose what we have. Is that God? You will be defeated by something and no matter what it is it will be the end of you. How does it feel to know that so many things out there could be the end of you? A little bit weak? Maybe that's where the god delusion comes from.

Flagston on 13/1/2007 at 15:44

Quote Posted by Dr Sneak

You are right, you did'nt say that. It was my little attempt at making a TTLG style smart ass comment.

However it does seem many religious people think that way and come up with wild reasoning to explain why we must do the things we should do as part of gods will and his plan.

It just seems odd to me that God would create a foreskin and then want us to cut it off. Yet this would have the beneficial effect of combating diseases that also fall under his domain.

Fingernail on 13/1/2007 at 15:47

Also no true Christian can really explain the meaning of God's actions since to presume to know the will of God is rather un-Christian itself, and is therefore rather self-defeating.

SD on 13/1/2007 at 15:49

Quote Posted by Laser Eyes

I wrote an article about the proof that the Bible is God's word.

None of that is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method) proof.

@ fett: I appreciated your post, that's the sort of thing I was hoping to read in this thread. I know my "OT proves Yahweh is evil" is a simplistic statement and held out of historical context; however, I personally would argue that a genuinely benevolent God would not solicit genocide no matter what historical period he was operating in.