Starrfall on 4/2/2007 at 01:23
If everyone in this thread gave me one dollar for every post they made in it I would have 568 dollars. \o/
Kolya on 4/2/2007 at 01:55
If ttlg paid each poster a dollar we'd buy you a nice cake. And keep the rest.
Kolya on 4/2/2007 at 12:17
Doubleposting because I need the money.
I had a long discussion about gay adoption with a friend of mine once (who is gay you got that right). It started with me saying that gays should get equal rights to fail at parenthood as straight couples do. (And ended in a veritable flamewar.) Anyway my point was this: While you need a license for a lot of things that require much less responsibility than raising a human being any chump+daftcow can have a baby. So yes, a lot of things can go wrong for a child growing up, couples divorce, parents expect them to lead the life they never managed to lead, deny them their love, hit their child, abuse alcohol, etc. Usually none of this leads to someone taking their child away. It just becomes another screwed up teen that we have to deal with somehow and hope that he/she'll manage to solve their problems by themselves before they die.
The potential problems that may rise from gay parenthood simply pale in comparison to the problems that every child may have to face. The whole discussion is blown up by semi-professional do-gooders.
In case you want to know, my friend's viewpoint was that there would be no problems at all coming from parents of one gender. I told him I was raised by one parent only which is actually a one gender parenthood and it led to a few problems for me but in the end it was better to have one loving parent than having two assholes as parents.
fett on 4/2/2007 at 16:46
Koyla - best commentary I've seen on that issue thus far.
I'll give the 'christian' perspective again. If gay people raise kids, more kids grow up thinking homosexuality is normal. Those kids then either a) become gay, b) enter society with a decidedly un-christian worldview, c) get molested because all gay people tend toward pedophilia, or d) all of the above.
The majority of the right-wing politicians banging this drum aren't worried about the children in the least - they're worried about perpetuating the gay agenda.
Martlet on 4/2/2007 at 17:10
well the christian perspective is a bit strange, seeing as, in the Church of England at least, there is a large amount of openly gay clergy. the anti gay thing seems to be more a reflection of society, rather than any specifically christian thing.
Christians should have no problem with lesbians, as the female orgasm serves no reproductive purpose, and is therefore not preventing life from occurring but they do strangely condemn lesbians. Their position does not make sense. It needs revision.
SD on 4/2/2007 at 17:20
Quote Posted by Martlet
well the christian perspective is a bit strange, seeing as, in the Church of England at least, there is a large amount of openly gay clergy.
The Anglican Church is on the brink of schism over the issue of gay clergy. It's very far from being a dead issue.
Quote:
the anti gay thing seems to be more a reflection of society, rather than any specifically christian thing.
Rightly or wrongly, it comes directly from the scripture, so I don't know how you could say it's more a reflection of society.
Quote:
Christians should have no problem with lesbians, as the female orgasm serves no reproductive purpose, and is therefore not preventing life from occurring but they do strangely condemn lesbians.
Lesbianism does "prevent life from occurring" because those women aren't in heterosexual marriages and being baby-making machines, which is their role in a traditional Christian family mechanism.
Martlet on 4/2/2007 at 17:32
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
The Anglican Church is on the brink of schism over the issue of gay clergy. It's very far from being a dead issue.
Its already split into two provinces "The Church of Nigeria" (which bizarrely the Episcopal Church of Massachussets is a part of) and the the "Church of England". An internal split in England is unlikely as there are two catholic, as opposed to evangelical, archbishops and therefore what Synod discusses is decided by them
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
Rightly or wrongly, it comes directly from the scripture, so I don't know how you could say it's more a reflection of society.
I don't know where it is in the scripture, but then again I'm pretty ignorant of the Bible. I'd like to see that pointed out.
You're saying Britain today isn't homophobic? How come every insult on the schoolyard is either "your mum" or "you're gay"?
The CofE has always reflected society; them recognising divorce is a perfect example. You could say that the CofE is far more liberal than many organisations in England, with the large number of gay clergy. The real problem that there is with ordaining gay bishops is that it is not in keeping with the Catholic Church. Pretty much all the Churches want an end to religion; they want to go back to the days of early Christianity where it was an individual religion. That is why the CofE sees a need to stay in keeping with the Catholic church, which it regards as the descendant of the original Church founded by Jesus.
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
Lesbianism does "prevent life from occurring" because those women aren't in heterosexual marriages and being baby-making machines, which is their role in a traditional Christian family mechanism.
A lot of Catholic scholars would disagree with you. All it is is mutual masturbation, not contraception or waste of sperm.
Epos Nix on 4/2/2007 at 17:54
Quote:
A lot of Catholic scholars would disagree with you. All it is is mutual masturbation, not contraception or waste of sperm.
I'm pretty sure most religious types have a problem with the fornication/masturbation thing because you're taking worship time from God while doing it. Or, as is more true of Buddhism, you're getting too wrapped up in pleasing the senses which weakens the 'spirit'.
Aerothorn on 4/2/2007 at 17:56
Quote Posted by Kolya
So yes, a lot of things can go wrong for a child growing up, couples divorce, parents expect them to lead the life they never managed to lead, deny them their love, hit their child, abuse alcohol, etc. Usually none of this leads to someone taking their child away. It just becomes another screwed up teen that we have to deal with somehow and hope that he/she'll manage to solve their problems by themselves before they die.
That's the other thing with this debate - as far as I can tell, there is much less correlation between the quality of parenting and how stable an individual is than people think there is. My best friend has a completely psychopathic father and a mother who just lets the father get away with everything, and she is one of the most calm, mentally stable people I know. On the other hand, I have essentially perfect parents and am screwed up in many ways. I'm not saying parenting doesn't have a big impact - just that kids are rarely an exact reflection of their parents, and are often nothing like them.
Martlet on 4/2/2007 at 18:02
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
I'm pretty sure most religious types have a problem with the fornication/masturbation thing because you're taking worship time from God while doing it. Or, as is more true of Buddhism, you're getting too wrapped up in pleasing the senses which is ultimately a waste of time.
nah... I'm pretty sure God doesn't mind you having fun... You don't have to pray all the time to be a good Christian, just as you don't have to be a ned flanders-esque person to be a good Christian. My dad is a priest, and the amount of (directly anti-religious) shit that I got was unbelievable.
like "does your dad not let you swear at home"
"do you have to read the Bible everyday?"
and I think that TV is generally pretty shit; I'd much rather read, play sport or music, so I got
"do you read the Bible instead of watching TV?"
I, unfortunately, have no clue about Buddhism.
