paloalto on 27/1/2007 at 16:56
Quote:
And you've done a wonderful job avoiding the whole Deuteronomy thing. You of all people should be familiar with such passages as the one suggesting you should stone a woman who was raped because she obviously didn't cry out loud enough. But I suppose that's another of your 'parts of the Bible we should ignore' and not 'the parts we shouldn't'
.
I have a friend who went over to India and a woman told him that a Brahmin priest said to her that God would not listen to her prayers for three years because she got a divorce.What nonsense!
Both of these stories are examples of laws passed by religious organizations who are run by men for the purposes of control.
And Jesus who never said you needed a priest or rabbi to have a relationship with God
and his rebuke of certain religous organizations shows that these organizations pass laws that are not always in line with the purposes of God.
SD on 27/1/2007 at 18:22
Quote Posted by paloalto
Your idealism while commendable seems to be blind on this issue.
I don't think my "idealism" is blind. I am, after all, the only one of us who has actually cited evidence to support my viewpoint.
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I'm just not willing to put kids in this situation based on the idea that it is unfair that gay couples cannot have the opportunity to raise children.
Umm, gay couples
can already raise children. They may be attracted to members of their own sex, but their parts are generally still in full working order. There are thousands of gay couples raising their own biological children.
Quote:
I bieleve the importance of establishing a bond with the mother has been proven to have a great effect on the outcome of children.
Supporting evidence please.
Also, if you have any arguments against gay adoption that are specific to gay adoption, and aren't also arguments against single parent adoption, then that would be cool too :) (Unless you want to ban adoption by individuals too...?)
mopgoblin on 28/1/2007 at 00:09
Quote Posted by paloalto
I bieleve the importance of establishing a bond with the mother has been proven to have a great effect on the outcome of children.How would an all male couple effect this bonding process?And young males depend upon a male role model hopefully to channel natural male aggression into positive forms of creativity.How would an all female couple effect this process?Would the male bond with one of the females as a "father" or would he be confused and see it as a double message?
As I already mentioned a couple of pages ago, there are plenty of single parents who manage to raise normal children, so missing a role model of one sex in the immediate family is probably not that much of an obstacle to a competent parent. You can get incompetent parents of any sexual orientation, and that's what you're supposed to watch out for, since they'll screw up in any number of other ways.
paloalto on 28/1/2007 at 04:57
I would invite you to take a look at the effect on black males in society who grow up in fatherless households and tell me with a straight face that it is not detrimental to the health and well being of children to have a single parent.
And even so what would you do with a single parent who has an existing situation versus creating new situations with gays?Force the single parent to get married?Take away the kid which would make a less than optimal situation worse?
Gray on 28/1/2007 at 05:24
I think you're confusing social and economic situation with parenting.
mopgoblin on 28/1/2007 at 06:10
Quote Posted by paloalto
I would invite you to take a look at the effect on black males in society who grow up in fatherless households and tell me with a straight face that it is not detrimental to the health and well being of children to have a single parent.
I don't need to. Since we're not basing policy on worst-case scenarios of heterosexual marriage, it's not reasonable to focus on worst-case scenarios for anyone. At the least, you're going to have to show the effect remains when there's no bias toward shitty social and economic situations, and that it's strong enough to overcome anything that could negate it.
Quote:
And even so what would you do with a single parent who has an existing situation versus creating new situations with gays?Force the single parent to get married?Take away the kid which would make a less than optimal situation worse?
You shouldn't do anything, unless there's actual abuse that justifies taking the kid away. Same as with anyone else. Interference based on relationship type or status seems to fit in much more nicely with your ideas than it does with mine.
Convict on 28/1/2007 at 07:32
Quote Posted by mopgoblin
As I already mentioned a couple of pages ago, there are plenty of single parents who manage to raise normal children, so missing a role model of one sex in the immediate family is probably not that much of an obstacle to a competent parent. You can get incompetent parents of any sexual orientation, and that's what you're supposed to watch out for, since they'll screw up in any number of other ways.
You know better than to suggest that Mopgoblin. What does the literature say about single parenting vs. M+F couple parenting of similar SES is what you should examine (and neither side has shown this).
jay pettitt on 28/1/2007 at 10:29
Are you trying to say that despite the thousands of single parents successfully bringing up children that there aren't thousands of single parents successfully bringing up children?
I'm confused.
Perhaps nobody's mentioned that little nugget up because no one is prepared to so obviously clutch at straws. Thing is, there are thousands of single parents doing a great job of parenting. I can testify to a couple of them, I'm sure everyone else on the board can think of a few others. So when 'the literature' says that there's something inherently inferior with single parenting then the correct response is to point and laugh at the silly agenda pushers. It's a half truth.
And are you really trying to say that where there are advantages to parenting in couples it's all because of the gender of the person they sleep with?
Maybe if we were all middle class heterosexual drones living in couples bringing up more middle class heterosexual drones to live in couples and bring up more middle class heterosexual cuoples yadda yadda, then it'd be very nice and we could live in happydroneyland - but life just ain't like that. In real life there are children needing parents and same sex individuals and couples who can parent as well as the next who are willing and able to adopt.
SD on 28/1/2007 at 15:35
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
In real life there are children needing parents and same sex individuals and couples who can parent as well as the next who are willing and able to adopt.
Quite. This is why I see that all these "arguments" against LGBT adoption are really just excuses; people taking a stance on the issue (invariably one dictated by their faith) and then seeking to justify it, rather than examining the evidence and then taking a position.
Rug Burn Junky on 28/1/2007 at 15:39
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
same sex individuals
So, are you saying that you're opposed to a hermaphrodite adopting a baby?
