The God Delusion - TTLG Forums

Epos Nix on 26/1/2007 at 04:21

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You'll also notice that stance was nullified in my subsequent post

Actually I believe it was Scots that nullified your post and you simply changed your statement to save face.

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My main point is that most religious people tend to confuse their belief with knowledge.

A person who is truly religious has not confused anything. They have founded their beliefs on their own personal experiences and therefore have accepted them as fact. Kinda hard to believe in a religion fully if you don't accept it within yourself as fact. And to a truly religious person, whether or not you take their beliefs as fact is totally irrelevant... religion is first and foremost meant to be a wholly personal thing. They state their beliefs as fact because to them they are fact.

Ko0K on 26/1/2007 at 04:38

I don't think you understand the difference between admitting flaw and attempting to save face. I never disputed that belif is a personal affair. In any case, believing your opinion to be a fact does not make it a fact. Indisputable accountability does.

Tiamat on 26/1/2007 at 04:40

Half a thousand posts and still no end in sight. Page 25 looms on the horizon! (or halfway through page 12, by my settings, but still.)

Convict on 26/1/2007 at 04:56

Quote Posted by Epos Nix

And to a truly religious person, whether or not you take their beliefs as fact is totally irrelevant... religion is first and foremost meant to be a wholly personal thing.

You made this up? :confused: (as in what's to say that religion has to be a wholly personal thing and a religion can't have a political mindset included in it?)

Epos Nix on 26/1/2007 at 04:57

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In any case, believing your opinion to be a fact does not make it a fact. Indisputable accountability does.

You're missing something here: to a believer, religion is NOT opinion. Their religious experiences are as true to them as the floor under their feet. And while their experiences may not necessarily make what they say into hard fact, neither does you saying that their experiences are not fact make them so. So there :p

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You made this up? (as in what's to say that religion has to be a wholly personal thing and a religion can't have a political mindset included in it?)

Because religion in itself is a belief system meant to help guide a person towards spiritual ascension. Despite what people say, religion in itself is NOT a method to control people... it is a method for self-discovery and self-perfection that leads to the aforementioned spiritual ascension. (and yes, religion can be used to control people, but then again so can almost anything: from money to power to sex, yet control is always a side product of these things being misused, not the initial purpose.)

fett on 26/1/2007 at 05:03

To everyone bitching about the thread length: This is a discussion. Not an attempt to answer the questions of God, the universe, and everything, and there's actually been some good debate and very little flaming. If your only contribution has to do with the length of the thread (which btw we're all fully capable of reading for ourselves at the bottom of the pageitsnotonlyonyourcomputeryoudumbass), I think I speak for the other posters when I say STAY THE FUCK OUT OF THE THREAD.

This has been a ttlg public service announcement. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Edit: ok, admittedly, those last few posts were shit, but still, leave us alone...

Convict on 26/1/2007 at 05:11

Quote Posted by Epos Nix

One might argue that Mormonism was created to make some dude money or that Islam has a political element as well as the spiritual element however.

Ko0K on 26/1/2007 at 05:15

Quote Posted by Epos Nix

I do have to admit that the way I put it comes across as though I'm making believers out to be blatant liars, and I realize that is completely out of line. To be fair, I do not consider factual knowledge to be of higher value than belief is. After all, we are where we are now because we had beliefs and inspirations.

Epos Nix on 26/1/2007 at 05:17

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One might argue that Mormonism was created to make some dude money or that Islam has a political element as well as the spiritual element however.

Certainly, but a person who understands the texts can judge for themselves what is relevant for themselves; they can separate the political from the spiritual. It's not that hard to do...

(mind you I'm talking about a person who is wise enough to see the writing on the wall.. er page... and not merely someone who follows because he feels obliged to. To a person who truly understands what he's reading, religion becomes less about the text on the page and more about how his mind interprets it, hence a wholly personal thing.)

The Alchemist on 26/1/2007 at 05:22

Quote Posted by Ko0K

Well the problem is that you don't have any factual knowledge that disproves God, either. Insofar as I'm aware anything before the big bang is fair game, scientifically. And I believe (scary word innit) that whenever we have that figured out there will be more questions still about our new findings and beyond (agnosticism ftw) so unless we become omnipotent beings there will always be a place for the concept of God, especially considering the fact that we can't really define God to being with (conscious creator deity be damned, God is simply energy I'm telling you!)