SD on 14/1/2007 at 01:09
Quote Posted by paloalto
Explain to me how natural selection formed the elements of the periodic table?
:weird:
Uh, it didn't.
Quote Posted by Renzatic
There is a fine line between philosophy and batshit insanity after all, and your belief that those who subscribe to a higher power are teetering on that edge is really quite arrogant of you.
Well, I didn't put it quite like that, but I'm really at a loss as to what a person can get from God that he can't get from elsewhere. I might be making a huge presumption here, but it seems like what Thirith really needs is professional help for his problems, not imaginary friends. I'm just worried that he might be setting himself up for a fall, that's all.
mopgoblin on 14/1/2007 at 01:26
Quote Posted by paloalto
Explain to me how natural selection formed the elements of the periodic table?
Were they in competition to survive?Living things of course can die which makes natural selection work.But matter cannot be destroyed which kind of takes the selection out of it.
The elements are an emergent feature of the universe, arising from the specific combination of fundamental constants we have, the geometry of the universe, and the basic rules about what particles do (relativity or quantum mechanics or string theory or whatever). I expect if you could fiddle with the fundamental constants or the rules, a small change would get you a universe with (mostly) quite similar chemistry. Bigger changes might get you a noticably different periodic table, and perhaps states other than the usual solid/liquid/gas would be more/less common too. But since there's someone here to do this thinking, the universe has to have rules and constants that allow intelligent life to exist. This tells you nothing about <em>why</em> the universe has that particular configuration, or whether there are a whole bunch of other universes with different configurations that we can't get at, in which no one is discussing the origin of the universe because there isn't an element that behaves anything like carbon, or the whole thing is a great big Bose-Einstein condensate. Maybe there are even some where an intelligent species is remarking upon the configuration that's just right for the complicated chemicals <em>they're</em> built from.
Ko0K on 14/1/2007 at 01:26
Quote Posted by paloalto
Well of course God has no need for money being without a body of course.However men need a certain amount of money to sustain himself physically and mentally.Of course any sign of human weakness in groups which are supposed to have a high moral standard will be glaringly pointed out.
Religions today are both a mixture of man's will and God's will and should not be held up as an endorsement by the Almighty.
And if your going to say that God does not exist because some or most individuals who are a part of a religious activity have the same foibles and problems that nonGodders do,belonging to a religious organization does not ensure spiritual progress.It depends on desire,intent and a willingness to be uncomfortable with change.People become familiar with their habits and lifestyle.They do not want to change what has become comfortable.This has no bearing on whether God exists or not.
In my opinion, spiritual progress builds on the core initial assumption that god does exist. That said, do you truly believe that god is actually self-evident? Without the concept of god being introduced to you in the first place, would you have naturally become aware of 'it' through a process that can't be dismissed as a human tendency to seek explanations for matters beyond their understanding? God may or may not exist, and acknowledging as such may be a matter of personal belief, but the fact is that religion is a human invention.
In the end, I'm not a god-basher. All I'm saying is that all that can be attributed to god can otherwise be explained through other means of understanding as our methods of scientific investigation improve, and that whether god exists or not eventually boils down to personal beliefs and opinions. By nature we influence each other's mind and attempt to achieve conformity, and apparently religion exploited such human nature to lump up everything we don't understand under one umbrella and decided to call it 'act of god,' as opposed to simply referring to it as the unknown.
(edit) Not that I really need to reveal my own belief, but personally I am open-minded toward god's existence to the extent that its one of the possibilities, although I feel that some of us are taking god way too seriously. I'm living my life according to my own conscience while not compromising the other's right to do the same, and if that's not enough for god then that's too bad. All that reverence, not to mention such fury over differences in beliefs, don't make any sense to me. Believing god exists does not equate to knowing, by the way. Not, at least, by human definitions of "belief" and "knowledge."
Also, I mean no disrespect by questioning or disagreeing on different views and opinions.
Renzatic on 14/1/2007 at 01:38
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
Well, I didn't put it quite like that, but I'm really at a loss as to what a person can get from God that he can't get from elsewhere.
It's an intangible thing I can see the base outline of but can't really describe.
I'll be corny here and use the concept of love as an example. You have the dry definition, it's nothing more than chemicals flowing and neurons firing to assure you do your part to contribute to the survival of the species. You can study the cause and effects of what does what that drives you to want to fuck the hell out of someone, but when you look at someone you really care about, you realize the how of it all is a very poor definition of the concept.
Some people need more than just how, Stronts. They need a why as well. Just because you can take comfort in the rather nihilistic view of the universe most Atheists take doesn't mean everyone can. Some people like to think that there might be more to their lives and the world around them than dry definitions and simple rationality.
Kolya on 14/1/2007 at 01:44
Has the question whether god exists been solved yet? The peoples are waiting outside...and they're looking bored. One of them threw something at me that looks like a prepuce. :confused:
SD on 14/1/2007 at 01:58
Quote Posted by Renzatic
Some people need more than just how, Stronts. They need a why as well. Just because you can take comfort in the rather nihilistic view of the universe most Atheists take doesn't mean everyone can. Some people like to think that there might be more to their lives and the world around them than dry definitions and simple rationality.
Actually I'm rather offended by your painting of my beliefs in such bleak terms. Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean that my life is meaningless or my views nihilistic. The purpose my life has is the purpose I choose to give it, not the purpose that "God" has in store for me. But my reality is far from stark.
Renegen on 14/1/2007 at 03:46
this thread sucks.. STD sucks.. yeah jesus what does he do all day? It sucks. It's a fucking fallacy.
Funny Aerothorn mentioned debating free will, you don't even know. I'm slowly trying to understand free will.
liquidfear on 14/1/2007 at 05:06
Stronts: "False hope"
Thirith: "I'm offended"
Stronts: "Don't be"
Renzatic: "Dry defintions and rationality."
Stronts: "I'm offended."
and I'm sure I'm not the only one here thinking "Don't be"
I'm not entering this debate to argue in any one way or another. (I have my own beliefs and they are a happy mix of both worlds that just feels fine to me. Also, I can argue for and against both sides, so it kind of defeats the purpose of entering a debate) I am entering for one question, and it's only to satisfy my own curiosity. Strontium Dog, what is wrong with letting a guy like Thirith enjoy his religion of choice? I dislike bible-thumping, religion pushers just as much as you and the next guy, but Thirith is not one of them, and I can't understand why you feel such a need to try and overdominate his beliefs because Richard Dawkins sez so in a book.
The question boiled down is, is it hard to accept the idea of "various paths to the mountain's top"? His personal belief in God surely isn't impacting your daily life or keeping you up at night, is it?
Briareos H on 14/1/2007 at 05:08
It is killing your babies, mister :mad:
Aerothorn on 14/1/2007 at 05:16
So I'm confused - does God exist or not?
