Gestalt on 13/1/2007 at 22:45
Quote Posted by Dr Sneak
As for 'reason and rationality'-from what I've seen here, I easily score in the top ten in terms of intelligence.:laff:
No.
Thirith on 13/1/2007 at 23:10
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
Well, first I'd need to know what it is you actually
get from belief in God that you cannot get in the absence of God.
Well, this is going to be based purely on personal experience, but I truly believe that since I've started to consider belief in God a viable option, I've become a more balanced, happier person. I am less aggressive, less vindictive, more willing to see other people's side in an argument. I feel less superior to people. Certainly this is self-assessment and, as such, problematic, but it's the best I can do in this case. However, whether it is based on delusion or not, I do know that before I started down the road towards faith, I was clinically depressed and on medication. I still get depression, but I have learnt to cope without medication. It's not proof, but at the very least it's one item of evidence that something has changed in me.
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And regardless of any consoling effect that belief in God may have, that doesn't make it real. I can believe that Jessica Alba wants to involve me in a threesome with her and Eliza Dushku, but that sadly doesn't make it any more true.
Not a valid comparison, as there's no verifiable positive effect coming from your belief if you don't actually get good orgasms out of it. In my case I get something out of believing. The one valid comparison I can think of would be this: placebos. And personally I don't see much of a point in telling people who feel better due to having taken placebos: "You're stupid, man! You just ate sugar pills! You *can't* be feeling better!"
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What I'm saying is that the false comfort one might derive from belief in God is entirely immaterial to the question of whather God exists or not.
I was almost going to grant you that until I realised that you wrote "false comfort". What arrogance - again, I'll point out the very real, verifiable effect that placebos can have.
Ko0K on 13/1/2007 at 23:15
Quote Posted by fett
That's an overgeneralization. I pastored a church for 5 years and paid off a $150,000 building without ever passing a collection plate. Even once.
I admit I'm generalizing, but is what I said really qualified as over-generalizing? I was a member of the choir for several years and held some positions on a voluntary basis, too, so I would say I was more than a casual believer. Set that aside, actually, since all I really need to say is that I actually had true faith. I never felt the need to argue with atheists, because my mind was at peace through my faith. Looking back now, it's amazing how human mind can be so thoroughly conditioned to that extent.
Anyway, I should say that I'm not completely opposed to the notion of god itself, but my opinion on religion is an entirely different matter. It was simply meant to be an interface between people and god, and not an organized system that requires elaborate financial and political logistics.
(edit) Oops. I forgot to follow up on the first sentence here. The reason I believe that what I said doesn't qualify as over-generalization is that, while there may be notable exceptions, sustaining religion for the most part requires tasks ranging from recruitment of new participants (i.e., "gospel" or spreading the words of god) to providing facilities so that people can convene to arranging for political accommodation, all of which require financial operations. In fact, you may not have needed a collection plate to pay for a building, but the fact of the matter is that the building itself cost money. Ideally, a true religious organization would consist of people who become aware of god through a common experience without the aide of second-hand explanations and interpretations, and more importantly without any financial operations. In other words, the only religious organization I would take seriously would consist of penniless street dwellers who communicate with each other through telepathy.
paloalto on 14/1/2007 at 00:14
Quote Posted by Ko0K
I tend to agree with George Carlin on his observation that god seems to be in need of a lot of money, all the time. Why is that, hm? Can't religion sustain itself without passing the collection basket? Anyway, I don't really think I need to read Dawkin's book to be cured. I used to have faith, but eventually I cured myself through reason and rationality.
Well of course God has no need for money being without a body of course.However men need a certain amount of money to sustain himself physically and mentally.Of course any sign of human weakness in groups which are supposed to have a high moral standard will be glaringly pointed out.
Religions today are both a mixture of man's will and God's will and should not be held up as an endorsement by the Almighty.
And if your going to say that God does not exist because some or most individuals who are a part of a religious activity have the same foibles and problems that nonGodders do,belonging to a religious organization does not ensure spiritual progress.It depends on desire,intent and a willingness to be uncomfortable with change.People become familiar with their habits and lifestyle.They do not want to change what has become comfortable.This has no bearing on whether God exists or not.
SD on 14/1/2007 at 00:22
Quote Posted by Thirith
I was almost going to grant you that until I realised that you wrote "false comfort". What arrogance - again, I'll point out the very real, verifiable effect that placebos can have.
I only meant "false comfort" in the sense that it is comfort based on a false premise, not that it isn't comforting. In some ways it's a dangerous game; you're only a short hop away from that frightening kind of person who shuns medical treatment in favour of the "power of prayer". Personally, I'd rather derive comfort from tangible sources, but each to their own.
And I don't see how you can accuse me of arrogance either to be honest, your assertion that atheism cannot give you the level of comfort that faith can is every bit as arrogant if not moreso.
Aerothorn on 14/1/2007 at 00:27
JESUS FUCK Std, what is your daily schedule?
Cause since this morning I've been using most of my free time trying to keep up with this thread, because I enjoy it immensely in the same way that I enjoy Neal Stephenson's Quicksilver - which is to say, it's fun for the thoughts it brings, not the material itself.
BUT I CAN'T KEEP UP. This thing is 6 pages already, largely cause you keep posting and responding. Kudos to you for your tenacity, but I'm at a loss as to how you're able to keep on top of this thing.
I'm about to give up - I just got to page 4.
HEY EVERYONE LET'S DEBATE FREE WILL
paloalto on 14/1/2007 at 00:28
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
While science cannot (yet) explain some things, it's entirely fallacious to fill the gaps with God.
You really don't you know :erg:
If we are spirit and matter you will never be satisfied with just matter.So it comes down again to what our makeup is.:angel:
paloalto on 14/1/2007 at 00:44
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
Better the theory that a complex being like God just appeared out of nowhere, rite?
What you see is the
illusion of design, but is actually the result of evolution by natural selection.
Explain to me how natural selection formed the elements of the periodic table?
Were they in competition to survive?Living things of course can die which makes natural selection work.But matter cannot be destroyed which kind of takes the selection out of it.
Josh68 on 14/1/2007 at 00:47
Quote Posted by Aerothorn
HEY EVERYONE LET'S DEBATE FREE WILL
There can only be free will in a universe without a God. Any God worthy of his mettle would have preplanned
everything.
Renzatic on 14/1/2007 at 01:03
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
I only meant "false comfort" in the sense that it is comfort based on a false premise, not that it isn't comforting. In some ways it's a dangerous game; you're only a short hop away from that frightening kind of person who shuns medical treatment in favour of the "power of prayer". Personally, I'd rather derive comfort from tangible sources, but each to their own.
That's a very slippery slope you're sliding down, Stronts. Just because he takes comfort in the fact that there might be something more to the universe beyond randomness and happenstance doesn't mean he's just a step away from chicken bones and faith healers. There is a fine line between philosophy and batshit insanity after all, and your belief that those who subscribe to a higher power are teetering on that edge is really quite arrogant of you.
