Herr_Garrett on 28/4/2009 at 11:10
Quote Posted by jtr7
These lines contain clues to my species, are creases from movement of growth, use, and age over time. They are connected to the hand, the purpose, nature, humanity, history. The visible intersection of all these.
A great idea, but if Glyphs would work thusly, then the Glyph of Transformation would not work as it does, since you would become someone else
all the way through, not just on the surface of things, to put it that way.
Neither would Gamall's toy soldiers work. Since stone isn't alive, it would take a Glyph that exists only in our imagination to bring them awake/alive. And I think it's damn hard to draw out something that doesn't exist (and do not misunderstand me, I'm not saying that our imagination does not depict possibly existing things, but we cannot think the unthinkable, concieve the unconcievable, imagine the unimaginable).
jtr7 on 28/4/2009 at 11:58
Point.
It would have to be more complicated, like a mixing of ingredients, as in a potion, enough of this and that. They likely work on a subatomic level, and can break down the laws of physics as they are normally ordered. The understanding of them may have had breakthroughs in understanding upon breakthrough upon breakthrough, to the point they are no longer bound to one plane of existence, of which they seem to have only a thin dividing membrane already. A Glyph may pluck the cosmic strings of String Theory, and create subtle changes in frequency with visible results. And like so many fields of science in real life, where things aren't fully understood yet can be manipulated comfortably with predictable results, the Keepers don't fully understand the art, yet can comfortably create predictable results. If the Glyph powers do cross planes of existence, then it would apply what is normal for one plane to this one.
A Glyph may start with what is visible to the eye, then become deeper and more tightly focused as the Glyph itself becomes simpler as unnecessary aspects are left off, and interesting variations (if it doesn't kill the Keeper) noted. The more complicated the Glyphs appear, as with the Metal Age prophecies, the less refined they are and need an Interpreter, perhaps. As the end grew near, the Glyphs were simpler, and only the clouded judgment, fear and paranoia, doubt, missing writings to reference, and great distraction kept the Keepers from seeing plainly.
When we witness the slow death of a Keeper, after Gamall's statues laid siege to the Compound, we see a Glyph rise from his chest with his last breaths, a Glyph found in all three games, a unique event for us. The nature of the Thief Universe, the magic present in a room with several Keepers always thinking about the Glyphs, always ready to dispense or give attention to Glyphs, ever attuned to them on a minimal level; in the Keeper Compound, which is a repository of billions of Glyphs--including volatile ones--creating an enhanced environment, an amplifier for the natural magic that shapes the Glyphs and makes glyphs of the Shapes (heh), we see the dead Keeper's essence translate from one form--a living man--to the next, whatever that may be. If it had appeared on his body, instead of rising up and out...uh...symbolically, it could've been interpreted as something to ease the passing. For once, we witness a death that doesn't result in just ceasing to be alive, or as a ghost, haunt, apparition, or zombie, but something that summarises the passing. Actually, I wish I knew what the hell that was supposed to be! :laff: And when that Glyph was chosen, did the chooser(s) know it was a Glyph from the games' Intros and boxart and promotional materials, including the classic animated gif? If so, it's a bit more important, I'd think.
Herr_Garrett on 28/4/2009 at 12:47
Quote Posted by jtr7
Point.
It would have to be more complicated, like a mixing of ingredients, as in a potion, enough of this and that. They likely work on a subatomic level, and can break down the laws of physics as they are normally ordered. The understanding of them may have had breakthroughs in understanding upon breakthrough upon breakthrough, to the point they are no longer bound to one plane of existence, of which they seem to have only a thin dividing membrane already. A Glyph may pluck the cosmic strings of String Theory, and create subtle changes in frequency with visible results. And like so many fields of science in real life, where things aren't fully understood yet can be manipulated comfortably with predictable results, the Keepers don't fully understand the art, yet can comfortably create predictable results. If the Glyph powers do cross planes of existence, then it would apply what is normal for one plane to this one.
Are we really comparing the Glyphs of Thief with cutting-edge physics findings? :cheeky:;) I rather think that they are a different interpretation of the good ol' Magick. Magic needs not to operate on subatomic or supratomic (is that correct?) level. A quote from Arcanum:
"while Technology utilizes physical law to produce a desired result, Magick manipulates physical law to do so". Agreed, magic and technology are somewhat intertwined in Thief, but it true all the same. Magic creates stuff ex nihilio: it needs not to bother with mixing other stuff, only with its possible spiritual costs. Technology and physics creates stuff from other stuff, without spiritual costs.
Quote:
A Glyph may start with what is visible to the eye, then become deeper and more tightly focused as the Glyph itself becomes simpler as unnecessary aspects are left off, and interesting variations (if it doesn't kill the Keeper) noted. The more complicated the Glyphs appear, as with the Metal Age prophecies, the less refined they are and need an Interpreter, perhaps. As the end grew near, the Glyphs were simpler, and only the clouded judgment, fear and paranoia, doubt, missing writings to reference, and great distraction kept the Keepers from seeing plainly.
Maybe, or maybe not. It is true that Glyphs are much more angular in DS than they were in MA, but DS gets 80% of its Glyphs from DP.
Quote:
When we witness the slow death of a Keeper, after Gamall's statues laid siege to the Compound, we see a Glyph rise from his chest with his last breaths, a Glyph found in all three games, a unique event for us. The nature of the Thief Universe, the magic present in a room with several Keepers always thinking about the Glyphs, always ready to dispense or give attention to Glyphs, ever attuned to them on a minimal level; in the Keeper Compound, which is a repository of billions of Glyphs--including volatile ones--creating an enhanced environment, an amplifier for the natural magic that shapes the Glyphs and makes glyphs of the Shapes (heh), we see the dead Keeper's essence translate from one form--a living man--to the next, whatever that may be. If it had appeared on his body, instead of rising up and out...uh...symbolically, it could've been interpreted as something to ease the passing. For once, we witness a death that doesn't result in just ceasing to be alive, or as a ghost, haunt, apparition, or zombie, but something that summarises the passing. Actually, I wish I knew what the hell that was supposed to be! And when that Glyph was chosen, did the chooser(s) know it was a Glyph from the games' Intros and boxart and promotional materials, including the classic animated gif? If so, it's a bit more important, I'd think.
I've always wondered at that. And my theory is: what if it's the Glyph-like shape of the Keeper-power leaving the body? Keepers are special, they "have talent". Maybe their bodies (and therefore Garrett's as well) are somewhat "tainted" with Glyphtic (:p) powers, and that is what escapes the corpse? I'm not imagining it Force and midichlorian-like, but rather, that just as there are natural focuses of elemental powers (and, come to that, of radioactivity, too), why not of Glyphs? And maybe they can "pollute" the area, and thus the talented creatures get their potential for power.
Stath MIA on 28/4/2009 at 22:51
Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett
Are we really comparing the Glyphs of Thief with cutting-edge physics findings? :cheeky:;) I rather think that they are a different interpretation of the good ol' Magick. Magic needs not to operate on subatomic or supratomic (is that correct?) level.
But in a universe where magic occurs naturally, wouldn't the study and application of magic technically be considered a science, Magicology maybe:sly:?
Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett
Maybe their bodies (and therefore Garrett's as well) are somewhat "tainted" with Glyphtic (:p) powers
In fitting with the Magicology concept let's call it: Magic Radiation! Interesting idea, a long term affect of using the Glyphs, maybe a reason why the interpreters had such a short life span.
Warning: prolonged exposure to Glyphs may lead to the following: increased aging, glowing symbols forming, obsession with living forever, and death. If you experience any of these symptoms please contact you're local First Keeper.
Jtr7- Refining of the Glyphs, it only makes sense that the Keepers would strive to better the Glyphs, maybe they even managed to combine a few to generate new effects. It would explain the sharper shapes in DS, straighten this out here, remove that from there and you've got a new more effective Glyph.
jtr7 on 28/4/2009 at 23:07
Quote Posted by Stath MIA
Warning: prolonged exposure to Glyphs may lead to the following: increased aging, glowing symbols forming, obsession with living forever, and death. If you experience any of these symptoms please contact you're local First Keeper.
Heh heh.
Quote:
ke2_idle6: "So old...so tired...what would it hurt to use the Invertamus glyph for a different purpose than intended. I'm not so sure others haven't done similar things already. Even Elder Cronen, he must be well over 90, but he looks and acts--but...I should not talk so...."
:eek:
Quote:
ks2_idle8: "I feel woozy again. If I tell them, I'll be sent to the infirmary for who knows how long. Not there, never again. No, this time maybe I'll take Bernard up on his offer...that glyph that helps quiet the mind and fortify the body...."
Quote:
SM3doversjournal: "Keeper Dover - Journal Entry Number 2136
I should have known better than to bring it up in front of the entire council. Still, my words had some effect, at least now there is the resolution forbidding it. I believe that will cause many to think twice should the temptation arise. Meanwhile, we should all be on the watch for the telltale signs - the dead animals, their life forces drained. It is not a love of creatures that compels me to speak out. No, they are pitiable, but inconsequential. I can only speculate on how long a Keeper could extend a normal lifespan in this way...a hundred...two hundred years? Maybe longer. But it would take more than vermin to accomplish that. And I, now that I posses the knowledge, can I truly say I too am not tempted? This is why I cannot remain silent. That, and the glyph that Elder Beryl speculates must exist - though we have yet to find - one that enables shape-shifting. What a potent elixer of glyph magics that would be."
Quote:
AULdiocenletters: "The Letters of Diocen, Book 5
To the Council- I am nearing the end of my ability to serve as Interpreter. My apprentice, Caduca, though blind, is highly gifted. She should be my successor when my time is ended. For the future, the prophecies are clear and rife with warnings. With the help of the young acolyte that chose thievery over us, we shall eventually overcome the first two trials. Then a third dark age will approach, but here the glyphs are not so clear. Interpreting this third trial will be Caduca's life work, and her eventual undoing. She knows this, and accepts her fate with dignity and balance. Interpreter Diocen
To the Council- This will be my last missive. The glyphs have taken all from me. I hope my efforts have not been in vain, and that my warnings have not fallen on deaf ears. I await a resolution on the matter of the glyphs I have postulated. If there is a Glyph of Transmutation, then there is terrible danger. A shape-shifter glyph would be too much a temptation for any Keeper. We must scour the old texts for any references to such a glyph. It is possible that early Keepers found it...but that the knowledge was lost. And it is how that knowledge might have come to be lost, that brings me great unrest. Interpreter Diocen"
And just as Astrology became Astronomy, until the early teachings became too divergent from the later teachings that they broke off from each other, the art of magic of the Thief Universe has become a scholarly affair, but in this case, the magic is not a superstition, nor will it ever become non-scientific. I would presume that in the future, with this new Dark Age, enough knowledge may be lost that there could be an increase in ignorance, and there will be more scoffers among those who have no aptitude for magic, and have not witnessed a real demonstration of power. And no one ever thinks the crystals are magic, so they are taken for granted as completely normal.
Stath MIA on 28/4/2009 at 23:20
All hail Jtr7, King of Quotes! That's pretty much what I had envisioned, but I hadn't considered the effects of the Dark Age on magic, indeed maybe magic will cease to be a science and slowly fade from social awareness:
"some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth." -Galadriel;)
But we won't no for sure until Thief 4 comes out:).
jtr7 on 28/4/2009 at 23:44
I really hope they are privy to the original devs' notes and design documents, and any other insightful documentation, like if they actually had someone taking minutes of their meetings, for example, and emails.
That is, if it's tied right into established canon and not a reimagining.
Stath MIA on 29/4/2009 at 01:22
Indeed, the Glyphs are a vital part of the Thief Universe, though what roll they would play in Thief 4 I am unsure of, after their probable destruction in DS.
That actually brings up an interesting question, what became of the Glyphs after DS, how were they undone? Perhaps whatever inter-dimensional portal they were passing through into our realm was sealed by the Sentients.
Hey! I'm now a full blown member! YAY!!
jtr7 on 29/4/2009 at 01:29
Haha! Congrats!
Yeah, I'm wondering if The Eye opened full and projected all the extraplanar glyph magic back through the dividing membrane into it's plane of origin, and closed.:p
I suppose that the Keepers only assumed the Glyphs were unwritten FOREVER because they could not fathom what else could explain why the all the Prophecies completely ceased, and there was nothing at all beyond what we know as Day 9, ending with the bereft and hopeless Keepers left with nothing. Their version of the Mayan Calendar December 21, 2012.
The "Mark" upon Garrett of a key symbol suggests hope of another chance, and a lock that may not even yet be accessible or may not even exist yet.