Papy on 3/8/2007 at 13:16
Quote Posted by DaveW
Frankly, all of what you were just listing as 'dumbing down', well, isn't.
Yes, I know what you think, but it doesn't change what I think... and you still have no idea what I'm talking about.
Having some entrances to an area that are not in plain sight, that you can find only by looking behind a crate is simply not enough for me. Maybe it is for you, but not for me. Particularly because the small levels of Invisible War made finding those entrances too easy. Your affirmation that Invisible War outdo Deus Ex in relation to hidden areas and choices is obviously just an empty affirmation from your part and it has no value.
What I don't like about Invisible War's choices, why I don't consider them as meaningful as the one from Deus Ex, apart from being too obvious, is that they are always extremely short term and localized. There is not enough consequences, every choices is OK, and that make them meaningless and irrelevant to me. Again, maybe it is enough for you, but nor for me. No consequence on the gameplay means I view those choices only as cosmetic. This is great for an interactive story, but I don't like simple interactive story, I want a real game where I can have a really hard time if I play carelessly, if I make the wrong choice. That's what I mean with punishment. Unfortunately there is no punishment in Invisible War for the simple reason that the gameplay is too easy. There is too much resources and you can always do whatever you want. Punishment is about not having what we want. Sure, we may miss some things, particularly some money, but nothing matters anyway as we have enough of everything.
You talked again about your "short demonstration", but that demonstration only show you don't understand the point other people were trying to make. Your demonstration was about breaking the game, not about being punished for being dumb.
You have to keep in mind that when I talk about dumbing down, I'm talking about the gameplay. I don't mind a simplified interface, but I do mind a gameplay that is made too easy, I do mind a gameplay where I don't have to think much or be careful. You say augmentation were crap in Deus Ex, and that probably show how different we are. As I said, I found the spy drone to be already too powerful as it made the gameplay too easy.
Quote Posted by DaveW
The interview with Warren Spector talking about things simply
makes sense, and whether you agree that the changes in IW were for the better or not it's clear that the intention was to remove useless and redundant systems, as Harvey and Warren have said in seperate interviews.
I agree, but the subject was not the "what", Everybody agree that the game was designed that way. The question is "why". Maybe Spector make sense, but you certainly don't !
Back to the "why". Why removing "useless" choices as I, and other people, find them necessary to give meaning to useful choices ? The answer some people are giving for the "why", is that it was to please casual gamers. And since Spector said PC gamers are almost exclusively hardcore, you can guess the conclusion.
Quote Posted by DaveW
Because the infolink is not for 2-way communication, and they have a conversation. Also, varying the method of interaction is a surely a good thing since it keeps the game's storytelling methods more interesting.
The infolink is not for 2-way communication ? Why not ? After all I can hear them and they can obviously hear everything I say. So why is it not used for two way communication ?
OK. I know why the holocomm unit was used. The problem is making the storytelling more "interesting" by using diversification and for game interface reasons also made the world seem illogical. Of course, if you don't care much about the world, if you are not attentive, it doesn't matter. But I like to understand what is around me, and that's why it matters to me. I prefer a world that make sense, and that's why I criticize the use of the holocomm.
BTW, Deus Ex also had logical problems with the Infolink, but at least DX managed it much better. I don't remember the exact situation you are referring about Everett, but as it didn't strike me I guess it was exactly like when Tracer Tong contacted us for the first time : it was because of Jacobson. The problem is not technological difficulty, it's specific knowledge. It would be alright if Chen used the Infolink not long after we exit Tarsus, it would make sense, but not only after a few seconds !
I don't remember the example you are giving me so I can't disprove it, and maybe you are right, maybe it was a mistake. Deus Ex was really not a perfect game. But, in this case, it was one mistake with the Infolink (that is, if you are right), one shortcut, not one after the other like Invisible War.
As for the scientist, please, don't try to excuse mistakes in dialogs. It was a mistake. I understand it's not important to you if the world make sense or not, and by what you said in other posts it's fairly obvious to me you don't care that much when you play a game. I certainly understand you are more interesting in "having fun". But it doesn't change the fact that Invisible War was worse than Deus Ex when it comes to the feeling of having a world that make sense.
I really have the impression Harvey Smith didn't care that much about the world making sense, and he was more preoccupied with creating and accessible gameplay. It seems he wanted immediate feedback (for example when I killed the Omar in Club Vox), instead of a delayed consequences. Maybe he feared players do not have enough attention span and, without immediate feedback, would lose the thread of the story. That's dumbing down.
Anyway, even Harvey Smith said Invisible War biggest problem was the lack of polish. He rated Deus Ex as a 90% and Invisible War as a 85% game.
DaveW on 3/8/2007 at 17:42
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Having some entrances to an area that are not in plain sight, that you can find only by looking behind a crate is simply not enough for me. Maybe it is for you, but not for me. Particularly because the small levels of Invisible War made finding those entrances too easy. Your affirmation that Invisible War outdo Deus Ex in relation to hidden areas and choices is obviously just an empty affirmation from your part and it has no value.
Ok, you don't agree with me so it has no value. There were far more ways to solve problems in IW. Take Mako, you first had a choice how you got there - steal the pilot from the WTO, or get Sid Black's Harrier back and pay him to get there. Both put you in different positions to start with. You can either blow up the front enterance or get the code from the mechanic, youusually "one hidden entrance", such as Castle Clinton - although being fair most missions
didn't even have that.
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There is not enough consequences, every choices is OK, and that make them meaningless and irrelevant to me. Again, maybe it is enough for you, but nor for me. No consequence on the gameplay means I view those choices only as cosmetic. This is great for an interactive story, but I don't like simple interactive story, I want a real game where I can have a really hard time if I play carelessly, if I make the wrong choice. That's what I mean with punishment. Unfortunately there is no punishment in Invisible War for the simple reason that the gameplay is too easy. There is too much resources and you can always do whatever you want. Punishment is about not having what we want. Sure, we may miss some things, particularly some money, but nothing matters anyway as we have enough of everything.
You talked again about your "short demonstration", but that demonstration only show you don't understand the point other people were trying to make. Your demonstration was about breaking the game, not about being punished for being dumb.
My demonstration showed the complete lack of consequences. There are
none in Deus Ex. I'm not denying that Invisible War didn't suffer from a similar problem, but at least there were significant choices you can make unlike the original game. You can choose what faction you want to work for, and if you betray one generally they try to attack you (i.e. work for the WTO in Cairo and the order sends out people to kill you). In Deus Ex it's a fixed path and killing characters generally doesn't matter. The choices in IW have exactly the same 'cosmetic' effect as they did in the original, there's just more of them.
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The infolink is not for 2-way communication ? Why not ? After all I can hear them and they can obviously hear everything I say. So why is it not used for two way communication ?
OK. I know why the holocomm unit was used. The problem is making the storytelling more "interesting" by using diversification and for game interface reasons also made the world seem illogical. Of course, if you don't care much about the world, if you are not attentive, it doesn't matter. But I like to understand what is around me, and that's why it matters to me. I prefer a world that make sense, and that's why I criticize the use of the holocomm.
Firstly, name a time in the original it was used for two way communication. And then think about times where characters have contacted JC alone where they could have just used the infolink. Such as the Oceanlab where JC's talking to Bog Page about finding a cure. A few minutes before JC had received a communcation of confirmation from Gary Savage, so the infolink worked. If you're going to point out 'flaws' in Invisible War and then just ignore that they were in the original too, there's no point in bringing them up.
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BTW, Deus Ex also had logical problems with the Infolink, but at least DX managed it much better. I don't remember the exact situation you are referring about Everett, but as it didn't strike me I guess it was exactly like when Tracer Tong contacted us for the first time : it was because of Jacobson. The problem is not technological difficulty, it's specific knowledge. It would be alright if Chen used the Infolink not long after we exit Tarsus, it would make sense, but not only after a few seconds !
I don't remember the example you are giving me so I can't disprove it, and maybe you are right, maybe it was a mistake. Deus Ex was really not a perfect game. But, in this case, it was one mistake with the Infolink (that is, if you are right), one shortcut, not one after the other like Invisible War.
You send a signal using Beth's computer. A few seconds later, he's contacted you. We can assume Jacobson wasn't there yet because otherwise he would have contacted him before, rather than just wait until he got the signal from the computer. Also to dismiss it as a "shortcut" doesn't make sense. We can just assume that infolinks are
easy to access. There we go, both situations make sense.
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As for the scientist, please, don't try to excuse mistakes in dialogs. It was a mistake. I understand it's not important to you if the world make sense or not, and by what you said in other posts it's fairly obvious to me you don't care that much when you play a game. I certainly understand you are more interesting in "having fun". But it doesn't change the fact that Invisible War was worse than Deus Ex when it comes to the feeling of having a world that make sense.
You're the one who made the mistake. You claimed the scientist knows "everything about you". He says your
name and then something about Nassif thinking you were the best candidate to work for ApostleCorp. That's not much information to read within a few minutes.
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I really have the impression Harvey Smith didn't care that much about the world making sense, and he was more preoccupied with creating and accessible gameplay. It seems he wanted immediate feedback (for example when I killed the Omar in Club Vox), instead of a delayed consequences. Maybe he feared players do not have enough attention span and, without immediate feedback, would lose the thread of the story. That's dumbing down.
This is where it's clear you're just trying to find problems. So, Everett can pick up a transmission not used for years, find your infolink information, and transmit - while the Omar apparantly can't when you kill one of their agents, even though accessing infolinks is easier?
Papy on 4/8/2007 at 02:22
Quote Posted by DaveW
Ok, you don't agree with me so it has no value.
No, it has no value because it's just something you feel, not a fact. I don't dispute your taste, I dispute what you seem to present as facts in order to justify what you like. You don't have to justify what you like. This is not a contest where I tried to pretend I'm a better person because of what kind of games I like. I'm not the brightest person on earth, but I'm not that stupid and pissing contest tend to get on my nerves.
I also don't dispute the fact that there was a lot of choices with Invisible War. I believe when you say there wasn't several paths with Deus Ex you are just acting as an idiot because I can't think of any mission with only one path, but that's not the point and I certainly won't study both games to evaluate which one had more "choice density".
The point is choices with Invisible War are irrelevant from a gameplay point of view because the game is too easy. I didn't gave a damn about Invisible War choices because I knew that whatever I chose, it would be OK. When I played Deus Ex, I was : "Ok, this way looks dangerous, can I find something else". When I played Invisible War, I was : "Yeah, whatever". I did explore everything, but it was not because I was having fun playing, it was because I was bored and about the only fun I could have was by doing some sightseeing (this is of course an exaggeration). Choices with Invisible War didn't really matter to me (this is not an exaggeration). The game could have had only half the choices, I wouldn't have noticed.
There is one thing I believe though, you don't really appreciate a game like Deus Ex as an action/rpg. You appreciate it as an interactive movie. I believe it because you still fail to understand why your demonstration is irrelevant to me. Of course, there is no real consequence to the story. Deus Ex is a linear game so it can't have consequences. We all agreed on this long ago. But this was not what I'm talking about when I mention punishment. If you play stupidly with Deus Ex, if you don't care when you play, then the gameplay will become difficult and maybe even frustrating. You will die, you won't have enough ammo, you won't be able to explore what you want... This is punishment, this is consequences and this is something that was completely missing with Invisible War. Choices with Invisible War had no consequence on the gameplay. Do you understand now what I'm talking about and why I find your demonstration irrelevant ?
As for flaws with Deus Ex details, I never denied them. But... two things : first, I strongly believe there was less flaws in details with Deus Ex. I could agree for more technical flaws (particularly with the AI), but the writing was better. Second, I was too busy to notice them, particularly the first time I played. Of course, since I find Deus Ex now extremely easy, I do (now) notice them, but I still have my memory, and I associate playing with Deus Ex with that memory. The problem with Invisible War is, as the gameplay was too easy and I was bored, I did noticed them immediately.
Up to now, you are always trying to dissect the game in order to understand it. But you can't understand something as complex as a game if you try to analyze only one part at a time. You have to view it as a whole.
I believe there is two ways to make a good game. One is to make something pure and perfect, the other is to make a mishmash of a lot of things, hoping flaws in some elements will be hidden from the player attention by some other elements.
Of course, Deus Ex did used the second way. As for Invisible War, it looks to me Harvey Smith tried to make something more pure (basically I believe up to a point what he said in the interview), without perfecting enough the most important element. He tried to magnify the core of the gameplay, without making sure this core was perfect. His magnification only revealed every flaws. Maybe going with the core of the gameplay is fine in theory, but in practice, with the example of Invisible War, it seems to me it's very dangerous.
This lead to the question of the Infolink. It's not "both make sense", as you said, it's both make no sense. The difference is those flaws are rare with Deus Ex as the Infolink is not overused, and are also less obvious because we are too busy to really notice them.
BTW, from a game design point of view, the infolink is mainly used as a "sure way" to send a message to the player. Invisible War didn't use an NPC to forward the message from Chen, or a datacube or even an holocomm unit, because Harvey Smith wanted to make sure even the dumbest FPS player would have no choice but to hear the tips about "choices", and not go on a killing spree without caring. It's a reminder to guide us and it is used over and over. Can you understand now why it is a problem for me and for most people who played with Deus Ex and why I called this dumbing down ?
Anyway, I'm not trying to find problems with Invisible War. I just see them, something that did not happen with Deus Ex.
BTW, the scientists find it amusing when Alex D. says "you know my name", because, as he said, he has to know a lot more about her if he had to [insert pseudo technical speech here] - sorry I don't remember the exact terms. Of course you can always come up with some far fetch explanations, I surely can, but this is still bad from a writing perspective as it is either because of some missing information (in which case I want to know it) or plain mistakes. It's like the example of the datacube from Billie I used in my previous post.
Of course this lack of information may well be due, again, directly to consoles. I'll let you guess how... ;)
And... I have to ask... what in-game facts makes you think accessing the Infolink is easier ? (except for the fact everyone has access to me, this supposedly top secret project, as I believe you once said)
DaveW on 4/8/2007 at 16:27
I did have a post just going over that this argument has already been done and is stupid, but I might as well reply now.
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No, it has no value because it's just something you feel, not a fact. I don't dispute your taste, I dispute what you seem to present as facts in order to justify what you like. You don't have to justify what you like. This is not a contest where I tried to pretend I'm a better person because of what kind of games I like. I'm not the brightest person on earth, but I'm not that stupid and pissing contest tend to get on my nerves.
I also don't dispute the fact that there was a lot of choices with Invisible War. I believe when you say there wasn't several paths with Deus Ex you are just acting as an idiot because I can't think of any mission with only one path, but that's not the point and I certainly won't study both games to evaluate which one had more "choice density".
Firstly, I'm not the only one guilty of presenting things as "facts", read your own posts from time to time. And by choices, I mean objectives in missions. Not how you complete one. Basically, the choice in terms of the original was only at the start, where you had "kill this guy or don't". In IW, that choice presented itself more times and often you had conflicting mission goals - rescue paul, kill him, let the Templars kill him and the like. I believe that you are just acting like an idiot when you say that Deus Ex has these kinds of choices.
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The point is choices with Invisible War are irrelevant from a gameplay point of view because the game is too easy. I didn't gave a damn about Invisible War choices because I knew that whatever I chose, it would be OK. When I played Deus Ex, I was : "Ok, this way looks dangerous, can I find something else". When I played Invisible War, I was : "Yeah, whatever". I did explore everything, but it was not because I was having fun playing, it was because I was bored and about the only fun I could have was by doing some sightseeing (this is of course an exaggeration). Choices with Invisible War didn't really matter to me (this is not an exaggeration). The game could have had only half the choices, I wouldn't have noticed.
This is where it's ridiculous for you to complain about mixing facts with opinion. I don't see where all these choices sprung up in the original game. Playing on Realistic I never really had to evaluate gameplay maneuvers, I just ran in and shot everything. I'd say that any evaluating was lesser in Invisible War - but that doesn't mean there weren't the same choices there. And remember that "choices" does not mean specifically those in gameplay, I mean ones in the storyline where they have a much bigger impact than Deus Ex's did. Oh wait, sorry - it barely had any.
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There is one thing I believe though, you don't really appreciate a game like Deus Ex as an action/rpg. You appreciate it as an interactive movie. I believe it because you still fail to understand why your demonstration is irrelevant to me. Of course, there is no real consequence to the story. Deus Ex is a linear game so it can't have consequences. We all agreed on this long ago. But this was not what I'm talking about when I mention punishment. If you play stupidly with Deus Ex, if you don't care when you play, then the gameplay will become difficult and maybe even frustrating. You will die, you won't have enough ammo, you won't be able to explore what you want... This is punishment, this is consequences and this is something that was completely missing with Invisible War.
Once again you're mixing up when I say choices with something completely different. I wasn't talking about gameplay choices. But at any rate I never really had any shortages of ammo - and I certainly had a massive abundance of multitools and lockpicks in both games.
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As for flaws with Deus Ex details, I never denied them. But... two things : first, I strongly believe there was less flaws in details with Deus Ex. I could agree for more technical flaws (particularly with the AI), but the writing was better. Second, I was too busy to notice them, particularly the first time I played. Of course, since I find Deus Ex now extremely easy, I do (now) notice them, but I still have my memory, and I associate playing with Deus Ex with that memory. The problem with Invisible War is, as the gameplay was too easy and I was bored, I did noticed them immediately.
Well, firstly I don't. Secondly, unless you're just insanely picky/retarded I doubt you were bored within about 5 minutes of playing the game. If so then it demonstrates you really weren't willing to give the game a chance and it might explain why you're hopelessly trying to find flaws in it. Unless you were shouting at the screen at that point
"SHE USED AN INFOLINK AND THEN THE HOLOCOM! THIS GAME SUCKS SO MUCH, DEUS EX NEVER DID THIS". Although, (
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9290/dxic5.jpg) it did.
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This lead to the question of the Infolink. It's not "both make sense", as you said, it's both make no sense. The difference is those flaws are rare with Deus Ex as the Infolink is not overused, and are also less obvious because we are too busy to really notice them.
Why do they not make sense? Let's just say that infolinks don't have audio. I don't know if there's any contradicting evidence in Deus Ex - although if so then it's a bit of a cock up in Trier where Chad Dumier seems oblivious to what you and Tracer Tong were talking about. That suggests that they do not have audio and that for a conversation, a holocom must be used. And also, the infolink is used just as much in Deus Ex. Honestly, you are just altering stuff to support your argument.
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BTW, from a game design point of view, the infolink is mainly used as a "sure way" to send a message to the player. Invisible War didn't use an NPC to forward the message from Chen, or a datacube or even an holocomm unit, because Harvey Smith wanted to make sure even the dumbest FPS player would have no choice but to hear the tips about "choices", and not go on a killing spree without caring. It's a reminder to guide us and it is used over and over. Can you understand now why it is a problem for me and for most people who played with Deus Ex and why I called this dumbing down ?
Sorry, this was in Desu Ex too! Wasting hostages in Battery park station, killing Anna Navarra - both instantly responded to by Alex telling you that you just did something wrong. I.e, "You can't just go in and shoot everything" and "Manderly will have you shot!".
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Anyway, I'm not trying to find problems with Invisible War. I just see them, something that did not happen with Deus Ex.
Whether you noticed them or not, they're still there as you admitted earlier, remember?
'I do (now) notice them'Papy on 4/8/2007 at 20:57
You still don't understand a word of what I said (probably on purpose), you change your point of view so you can look as you are "right", you put words into my mouth...
You are not here to discuss game design, you are here because you are just another idiot who wants to win an argument. As I said, I hate pissing contests.
DaveW on 5/8/2007 at 04:40
Quote Posted by Papy
You still don't understand a word of what I said (probably on purpose), you change your point of view so you can look as you are "right", you put words into my mouth...
You are not here to discuss game design, you are here because you are just another idiot who wants to win an argument. As I said, I hate pissing contests.
I haven't changed my point of view. And as I said:
'I did have a post just going over that this argument
has already been done and is stupid, but I
might as well reply now.'
So don't push it on me like you weren't arguing, you were continuing it just as much as I did. You can't have an argument with only 1 person. And I call it argument because later on
you started putting insults into your posts. It is funny how you want to call it discussion and that I want to "win an argument". Because as I said it was
you that started throwing insults calling me an idiot etc., and you still are. If you want to 'agree to disagree', that's fine, but don't hide behind some bullshit reasoning and then act as if you weren't involved. It's just pathetic and makes you look silly.
Raph, that 13 'fraking' pages was between my opinion and other people's. It ended when I actually took the first move of saying "This is stupid, I'll drop it" (I tried to do it several times over the course of it but
other people wanted to continue arguing, not me.) So, what didn't 'I get'?
rachel on 5/8/2007 at 18:38
You'll have to figure it out by yourself this time.
DaveW on 6/8/2007 at 04:43
Cute little get-out clause you got there. ;)
