Jashin on 28/7/2007 at 13:59
Quote Posted by DaveW
Ah, I love how even in the face of an interview with Warren talking in-depth about how he wanted to streamline the game, the fanboys still manage to pull shit like "He was in denial! It was all the console's fault!!1111". Not only that, but the PS2 version of Deus Ex seems to conviniently be forgotten, which
retained the skills system and received (
http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/ps2/deusextheconspiracy?q=deus%20ex%20the%20conspiracy) good reviews. So, what you're saying is that the thought process was:
"Ok, we got really good reviews for the PC version and quite good for the PS2, what should we do?"
"Let's get rid of all the things the reviewers liked! That will surely make the reviews better!"
Really logical.
It wasn't the console. Get over it.Fanboy? Fanboy of what?
You have no idea what you're talking about. Whereas you linked to an interview, I've interviewed the actual folks behind those 2 games. Xbox had a critical effect on the planning and making of IW. The amount of hacks they pulled to make dx the conspiracy work is staggering.
I love the use of your "logic" btw, while knowing next to nothing about what it actual goes on in the process. I'll have you know how little value conventional logic has in the creative process, not to mention something unprecedented. In keeping with the console specs as well as in trying to tame an unruly renderer, IW devs made concessions, many of which they didn't know if it was even concessions.
ZylonBane on 28/7/2007 at 17:03
Wow, cripple fight in aisle three!
Look, idjits-- There was a lot screwed up in DX:IW. It's a given that it did practically nothing right. However, only SOME of its flaws can be blamed on the console co-development. Small levels? Yes. The awkward, gamepad-centric controls and clunky oversized text? Sure thing. But then all the other crap like the terrible writing, ugly character models, no reloading, universal ammo, lack of a true skill system, tiny inventory, etc etc, are pretty much platform-independent design choices. With Harvey Smith at the helm, IW would have sucked even if it had been a PC exclusive. It just would have sucked slightly less.
DaveW on 28/7/2007 at 17:19
Let's see, we're discussing Deus Ex and I suggested that people were fanboys.
I wonder what I was implying they're fanboys of.
(Since you seem rather slow, I was talking about the people who stick rigidly to Deus Ex and don't want anything different from it, where any imperfection however minor is suddenly
ruining the whole game)
Quote:
The amount of hacks they pulled to make dx the conspiracy work is staggering.
What is your point? The fact that it worked would make them do it again - especially if they knew, as some people are implying, that if they didn't the game wouldn't be as popular.
Quote:
I love the use of your "logic" btw, while knowing next to nothing about what it actual goes on in the process. I'll have you know how little value conventional logic has in the creative process, not to mention something unprecedented. In keeping with the console specs as well as in trying to tame an unruly renderer, IW devs made concessions, many of which they didn't know if it was even concessions.
Yes, my small dialouge was totally serious. Also, console specifications effects one thing, and one thing ONLY. And that's level size, not the skill system, not the gameplay - purely level size. Just like it did in The Conspiracy, but as I've said that kept the skill system and whatnot. And that concession was realised by the devs in the 'Real' DX ending where they said along the lines of:
"We should add vehicles"
"Yeah, that'd be real fun - driving vehicles down corridors"
ZylonBane's got the idea right (allbeit I completely disagree with most of the stuff he mentions as 'flaws'). Why would Ion Storm universalise ammo just for the Xbox? The most popular FPS's on the Xbox have them! And why screw with the inventory system when they left it in the PS2 version?
Ultraviolet on 28/7/2007 at 17:31
I see a lot of attacking here and not a lot of actual debate. I think the closest thing to a valid point was "I've interviewed the actual folks behind those 2 games." Now, while some master debaters will try to shrug that off as an appeal to authority, it's actually not. It's the only "I have further information available" here. Of course, there's a lack of elaboration, or at least it's buried among so much sarcasm and spew that it's hard to tell.
UR RONG UR FANBOY!? Nigaplz.
On the topic directly, though, DaveW, the TECHNICAL specifications of the console would require decreases in level size. The userbase of the console, though, might require mass simplification of game mechanisms. Just because the first game didn't doesn't necessarily mean anything. Supposing (and that means assuming, because I don't know, and you can correct me if you have proof, but if I'm right, please acknowledge) that the Deus Ex came out on the PC first, then The Conspiracy was a port, and thus the game was already made and it was just a matter of getting it to work. I don't know a lot of people that actually played that on the PS2, though, and maybe that's why, from a fresh start, Invisible War was made to contain less depth.
So, a possible version of the story goes: DX is a great "cult fame" game on the PC, so they figure they can cash in on nerdy PS2 fanboys that love anything that has RPG elements to it (yes I realize this is a generalization), but sales don't meet expectations, so the next time around, they look at aiming for the largest possible userbase and end up disappointing the original Deus Ex cult crowd.
Please shoot down points individually, rather than at the messenger.
Pyrian on 28/7/2007 at 18:29
Oh, boy, here we go again, where's the popcorn? :eww:
DaveW on 28/7/2007 at 21:01
Ultraviolet, you make out as if I'm flaming people. Had you actually read my previous posts fully, you would see that a small part was a hit at a general group of people, and the rest was perfectly valid points, such as the one where I linked to an interview where Warren explains how Jashin is completely wrong. If that's not a valid point, I'm not sure what is.
'On the topic directly, though, DaveW, the TECHNICAL specifications of the console would require decreases in level size.'
Well, not really. I draw your attention to Halo and specifically Halo2 - plenty of shaders, individual weapon textures (IW uses a shared texture), probably the same kind of texture resolution (i.e stupidly small) - and huge environments. They got around memory limitations just fine. Infact, IW could have done this much easier because it was all enclosed streets - it's not hard to disguise transitions (how Halo handles it, since you can see it says "Loading...Done" and the environment tends to 'jump').
'The userbase of the console, though, might require mass simplification of game mechanisms. Just because the first game didn't doesn't necessarily mean anything.'
How doesn't it? If it worked on a console before, why wouldn't it work on a console again?
'Supposing [...] that the Deus Ex came out on the PC first, then The Conspiracy was a port, and thus the game was already made and it was just a matter of getting it to work.'
It did, but that really has nothing to do with this. The point is, they ported it while keeping it the same, and it was successful - so why would they simplify it for fear of it not doing well? The game mechanics they simplified already had already been shown to work on consoles!
'I don't know a lot of people that actually played that on the PS2, though, and maybe that's why, from a fresh start, Invisible War was made to contain less depth.'
This is an entirely different debate, but it's incorrect to state IW contains less depth. As the review I posted earlier said; 'complexity is not the same as depth'. It's an arguable matter (and one that has been argued previously), but don't state it as fact please.
'So, a possible version of the story goes: DX is a great "cult fame" game on the PC, so they figure they can cash in on nerdy PS2 fanboys that love anything that has RPG elements to it (yes I realize this is a generalization), but sales don't meet expectations, so the next time around, they look at aiming for the largest possible userbase and end up disappointing the original Deus Ex cult crowd.'
Cult fame? It's recognised as one of the greatest games ever made - listed in the top 5 list of games of PC Gamer a couple years ago, along with Half Life. Even if console sales didn't meet expectations, if they knew that simplifiying it would piss of the PC gamers they wouldn't have done it to such a large degree - because there's no guarantee it would do better on the console and it's bound to lose sales in the PC market, which is larger for Deus Ex type games anyway.
I do hope you've read the interview I linked to, though.
Ultraviolet on 30/7/2007 at 16:20
Don't tell me what I did or did not read. I did read everything.
And hey, all electronic gaming is "cult." Well, except Halo, I guess.
at-work-too-busy-to-respond-to-the-rest-cop-out-combo
ZylonBane on 30/7/2007 at 16:59
Quote Posted by Ultraviolet
And hey, all electronic gaming is "cult." Well, except Halo, I guess.
Space Invaders? Pac-Man? Super Mario Bros? Street Fighter? Mortal Kombat? Tetris? Zelda?
There truly is no end to your cluelessness.
DaveW on 30/7/2007 at 17:50
Zylon, I think the biggest one he missed was The Sims. Or Grand Theft Auto. Well, he missed a lot of games.
Ultraviolet on 30/7/2007 at 18:51
Cult as in "a lot of people probably think you're a fucking loser for playing" them. It all no doubt seems fairly obviously mainstream to you, but you're not everyone else. It's a given that we're on the INTRAWEBS, and therefore gaming is pretty pervasive, but the whole world isn't wired. It is rather clueless of you (rather than me) for you to expect that even the majority know about any of this stuff. Back away from your keyboard every now and then. Do you know a single person who is not into video games? There are more of them out there than you may think!
If you want to prove me wrong, feel free to conduct a survey or something.
ZylonBane, I bet you don't have such a big fucking mouth in real life.
DaveW: Halo was an example, and specifically because I could imagine frat-boys playing it.
