Tocky on 29/7/2008 at 04:15
That's exactly it Stitch. I don't think Bush should be let off the hook even if he did do the worlds dirty work. I know it sounds as if I have argued for that on occasion but that was just understanding the rock and a hard place situation. He and his ilk of capitalism at any cost go big oil yay USA were a villain creator so no unhooking. That's just scarey. The public should always be treated as if it can understand because it can. No information should be held back. No Dent. No hero. Just flawed people trying to do the best they can and sometimes failing. Taking one for the team I can understand and it is in its way noble but character flaws have to be acknowledged as only human.
The Joker was scarey because he represented and stated no rules war. Destruction without redemption of rebuilding better. Total and totalitarian mayhem. The most innocent and best as fodder because he felt there was no remdeeming value to any. No value to Gotham or man. Infidels all. To succumb to even a part of that philosophy in fighting fire with fire should be acknowledged not covered up.
It was a tad bewildering and disturbing but did make one think. I still haven't sorted it. The phone thing for saving lives for instance. I keep falling and hitting the top of the fence without landing on either side. Once was okay? Was it really Freeman?
The Bodysnatchers wasn't intended as coldwar propaganda but tapping into the well of fear at the time. Yeah. Our fear is turning into what we loathe and we ought to. No Dent.
icemann on 29/7/2008 at 07:57
The bodysnatchers and the coldwar have nothing to do with each other.
Morte on 30/7/2008 at 19:57
It has less obviously clunky bits than in Batman Begins, but I don't think it's quite as good. I'd have to think about it though. Ledger's Joker was fantastic, but Dent turning into Two-Face was entirely too much for the movie. It moves at such a breakneck pace that it doesn't feel like two and a half hours, but there just isn't space for all they're trying to cram in there.
They should have just focused on Batman vs. the Joker. And also not been quite as quick to cut away from The Joker torturing people. I'm not saying they should've lingered on the gore, but few moments to really let us absorb Ledger's nastiness early on would've been worth it. It's clearly not a movie for a remotely young audience, and pretending otherwise doesn't do it any favours.
Sypha Nadon on 30/7/2008 at 20:03
I've heard this whole argument that "The Dark Knight" is some sort of George Bush apologia but I'm not sure if that really holds water. Batman doesn't mind being portrayed as a villian, while the Bush administration has shown a constant obsession with appearance, the manipulation of the media, and so on. One thing that interests me about the film is that really, the Joker won, no matter how much the good guys try to hide Dent's downfall. H'mm, I guess that could be seen as a manipulation of the facts also.
In any event, when you boil it down it's a movie about a guy who dresses up like a bat who fights a crazy clown, so I'm not going to read too much into it. Taken at surface value, it's not a bad movie and very enjoyable. I think the comic fanboys (or, vice-versa, people who have never read a Batman comic at all) are going a little overboard in praising it, but there's still a lot to like.
Here's hoping that the next one has Bat-Mite and the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh. Now that would be worth watching.
Morte on 30/7/2008 at 20:12
The creation of an ultimately fake hero is sort of dubious, but instituting checks and balances for the massive surveillance instead of tearing them down? Striving towards accountability and minimizing executive power instead of laughing at the concept? This is not the Bush Administration we know.
If anything's a parallel to the US' policy on terror, it's Two-Face's arc. When push came to shove the rules went flying out the window.
David on 30/7/2008 at 20:28
Quote Posted by Morte
They should have just focused on Batman vs. the Joker. And also not been quite as quick to cut away from The Joker torturing people. I'm not saying they should've lingered on the gore, but few moments to really let us absorb Ledger's nastiness early on would've been worth it. It's clearly not a movie for a remotely young audience, and pretending otherwise doesn't do it any favours.
Yeah, I agree with that. I don't know how it was rated in Finland, but in the UK it was a 12a and I think there were points that it was pushing the boundaries of that compared to what else gets rated a 15 (the next step up).
It wouldn't surprise me to see a Director's Cut with that kind of stuff left in.
Thar be minor spoilers below!Ledger was the fuckin' bomb though. I was just reading the IMDB Trivia. Apparently the first time Michael Caine met him was when they were doing the scene where the Joker goes to Wayne's penthouse and he freaked Caine out so much that he forgot his lines.
It may not be particularly true to the comic book Joker, but it was brilliant.
SubJeff on 30/7/2008 at 20:42
I second that David. The more I let it sink in the more I realise how much I found that Joker performance to be the tops. I don't think I've seen a nastier bad guy in a film since Brick Top from Snatch. What a swansong, really.
Scots Taffer on 31/7/2008 at 00:00
Quote Posted by Morte
It has less obviously clunky bits than in Batman Begins, but I don't think it's quite as good. I'd have to think about it though. Ledger's Joker was fantastic, but Dent turning into Two-Face was entirely too much for the movie. It moves at such a breakneck pace that it doesn't feel like two and a half hours, but there just isn't space for all they're trying to cram in there.
They should have just focused on Batman vs. the Joker. And also not been quite as quick to cut away from The Joker torturing people. I'm not saying they should've lingered on the gore, but few moments to really let us absorb Ledger's nastiness early on would've been worth it. It's clearly not a movie for a remotely young audience, and pretending otherwise doesn't do it any favours.
Two separate issues here worthy of comment I feel -
Joker's arc was intrinsically tied to Dent's plot in this movie, to separate them would've weakened the overall impact of the Joker's plan... I agree that a lot was crammed into one movie and yes, there are definitely spots where the script couldn't been tightened to allow further development of both Joker, Batman and Dent's fall (goodbye HK segment and overlong end-shootout!), but to suggest that Dent's fall should've been kept for another movie misses the point - Joker's power was in corrupting the incorruptible, if he couldn't make Batman change, he'd make the White Knight of Gotham change.
On the second point, there's the problem with trying to make this a PG-13/12A type picture when it obviously isn't and then there's the suggestive content over graphic content. I believe that the Joker was far more terrifying precisely BY cutting away and not lingering on a character doing the dirty deeds, because we already "get" from his monologues that he takes great pleasure in using a knife, causing chaos and killing people - these are all well established very early on. Still, I feel what was left in - particularly because it is suggestive of such extreme brutality - should've easily tipped the scale over into 15 or M rating territory... someone somewhere got paid enough dollars to let this one slip into the major audience demographic.
Morte on 31/7/2008 at 04:46
I know Dent falling is the entire point of the movie, I'm saying they should've found some other way to illustrate the war over Gotham's soul. Having so much Harvey Dent in there feels like it overburdens and dilutes the movie, because Batman and the Joker are the main show.
I'm not asking for more graphical content, but there's some scenes that felt stunted because they had to try and get a rating the movie's not suited for. "Why so serious" in particular felt like it it didn't flow naturally from knife in the mouth to slumping to the floor, because they had to cut as much as humanly possible to get the movie past the censors.
Scots Taffer on 31/7/2008 at 04:58
Quote Posted by Morte
"Why so serious" in particular felt like it it didn't flow naturally from knife in the mouth to slumping to the floor, because they had to cut as much as humanly possible to get the movie past the censors.
That cut and Batman + Rachel falling from the building cut makes no fucking sense to me at all. :(
