pavlovscat on 5/11/2006 at 03:20
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
And again, after the entire country was misled by the Bush regime, the easy option would have been for him to keep his mouth shut about the Iraq war that he had supported. But he acknowledged that he had been wrong to support the war, even though it meant copping flak for "flip-flopping" (and probably cost him the Presidency).
Given a choice between the easy option and the right option, a great man will opt for the latter. By that criterion, John Kerry is unquestionably a great man.
You obviously hate Republicans, especially Bush & co, but you do have valid reasons to admire Kerry. I never looked at it that way and find myself adding research John Kerry to my weekly-to-do list. My jury is still out, but you have made me curious enough to find what you see in him that deserves such vehement support. By nature, politicians are both heros & bums depending on who is looking at them.
SD on 5/11/2006 at 03:30
It's not even his political affiliation; it is possible to be a Republican and to be great, and there are numerous issues on which I would find myself disagreeing with John Kerry. But the man has honour, integrity and a fine sense of public duty, which are qualities you can admire wherever you fall on the political spectrum.
TTK12G3 on 5/11/2006 at 03:46
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
it is possible to be a Republican and to be great
What kind of Republican? A good *cough* part of them seem to be devolving into spectacular mindless zealots.
Rug Burn Junky on 5/11/2006 at 04:05
Quote Posted by pavlovscat
"I am convinced a volunteer army would be an army of the poor and the black and the brown,"
That's not a criticism of the soldiers, you dumb cunt, that's a criticism of the economic and social forces which makes the "opportunity" to risk your neck in service of the country a far more attractive choice only for those who have fewer other options.
THAT is reality.
The armed forces are disproportionately made up lower socioeconomic classes. Those who did not have the opportunity to skate through school to a well paying job.
I absolutely respect that choice, it takes balls to sign up regardless of motivation, but to say that there isn't a large contingent of our soldiers who wouldn't have jumped at a college scholarship is to simply have your head up your ass.
Regardless, it is simpleminded and myopic to take any of these quotes, 30 years ago or last week, and twist it in your mind as being an insult to the troops.
pavlovscat on 5/11/2006 at 04:50
OK, so which is it? A dumb cunt or a hideous redneck. How about a dumb hideous redneck cunt? Haven't you figured out that you only make yourselves look bad by resorting to name calling? I might be upset if your opinions of me mattered. But, you can't seem to understand that insulting people is not the way to make them agree with you. In fact, it will tend to have to opposite effect. At least I have the balls to have my own opinions and state them, no matter that some people here seem to think that is a crime, as well as giving them license to call people chidlish names. If your opinion is supportable, why do you feel the need to call names? Unless it is because you really would rather call names than attempt any sort of discussion. Or are you afraid that someone might try to change your mind and succeed? I'm sorry, maybe I'm a bit slow, but I don't understand how name calling is productive.
Yes, a lot of people sign up because their other options are not attractive. I never said that was untrue. Some people sign up for education benefits they wouldn't have access to any other way. I think that Kerry chose poor wording to convey his idea. If he hadn't made his recent joke gaff, nobody would be talking about this, but he misspoke which made people remember his previous comments and wonder if he feels respect for the troops. I am not the only person who questions his motivations, even if I am the only one dumb enough to think that anyone would admit to it in this environment. When you are in the public eye, you should be extremely careful about your handling of hot button issues. To make jokes about the military is both insensitive and foolish, as it only invites criticism and makes some people say, "See, I told you he hates the troops." Too many wives & husbands, mothers & fathers, sisters & brothers, & friends, myself included, have lost loved ones in this war. No matter whether the war is justified or not, to joke about the military is a slap in the face to those who have lost loved ones and the ones still stuck fighting. Whether or not you agree with the war, our troops deserve the utmost respect and that shouldn't include cracking jokes about it.
Tocky on 5/11/2006 at 04:55
I don't understand why so many bought the "he was insulting the troops" line so quickly. While it is true he may hold the view, as do many, that the military is made up of undereducated or confused youngsters, it was plain to me he meant that if we do not educate ourselves we will wind up embroiled in places like Iraq. The inference and onus was on the president it seemed to me. Perhaps a bit of the onus was on us all.
Did I miss something? Of course republicans would spin and misinterpret to thier best advantage. It's what politicians do. We don't have to buy it though.
The thing is, I can see the benefit of getting rid of Hussein with the hope Sunnis and Sheits would get thier shit together enough for a democracy. It wasn't what was sold us though. WMD remember? Either that was lack of intelligence or a lie. Perhaps the weapons were shunted across the border beforehand. Who the fuck knows? But more actual intelligence would have been great before sacrificing the lives of soldiers that I hold in highest esteem.
Matter of fact, fuck Iraq. As it turned out there are too many who hate each other and us to make the sacrifice of any idealistic young men and women worth it. We need those good people home and alive. I hate it for the good people of Iraq. There only am I torn. That place is too full of festering murderous assholes. I wish we all had been more educated about that.
Aerothorn on 5/11/2006 at 06:12
pavlovscat - You've got to realize that many on TTLG mix insults with debating. The insults aren't the point, they're just flavor - and in RBJ's case, I really don't think he means them maliciously (though obviously, I can't speak for him). I'm not trying to justify it, just saying that that's how things are often done here, and if you just shrug it off as "oh, that's the internet for you" you'll be much happier:)
As far as Kerry goes - hate to nitpick with you, Std, but I don't recall him ever renouncing his support for the Iraq war. We can all debate what cost him the election (other than having a horribly run campaign and some election fraud in Ohio), I'm not going to go there - but I can say that many people (myself included, though I wasn't a legal voter at the time so it doesn't matter) were turned off not by any 'flip-flopping', but by his REFUSAL to completely 'flip-flop'. Instead of standing up and saying "I voted for the war because I was being a coward, too afraid to take a stand for fear of being painted unpatriotic, and it was stupid and I regret it" he kept making up excuses - oh, it wasn't my fault, Bush misled me.
And he never renounced the war - he kept saying stuff like "I would have sent more troops to Iraq", as if the problem was manpower. Does Kerry thing Vietnam could have been 'won' with more troops? That's not the point, OCCUPATIONS DO NOT WORK IN MODERN TIMES UNLESS THE POPULACE WANTS YOU THERE. He could send 10 million troops, it's not gonna stop suicide bombers from killing people.
He refused to renounce the war for fear of alienating the then-majority of people who supported it and for fear of being seen as a flip-flopper - but people saw him as a flip-flopper anyway, and most of those who supported the war were already in the bush camp. I dunno, maybe Americans wouldn't have voted for someone who took a stand against it. But trying to have his cake and eat it too certainly didn't win him the election (and for what it's worth, I'm not playing Mr. Hindsight here, I said this before he lost).
Anyway, that was my impression. Obviously you have access to some quotes I never saw or something - did he actually renounce the war during his campaign - not just from a "Bush tricked us!" but as in "It was a horribly evil stupid idea, whether they had nukes or not".
Rug Burn Junky on 5/11/2006 at 06:25
Quote Posted by pavlovscat
Yes, a lot of people sign up because their other options are not attractive. I never said that was untrue. Some people sign up for education benefits they wouldn't have access to any other way.
Based on your logic, I wonder if you respect the troops.
Agent Monkeysee on 5/11/2006 at 07:54
That's the worst part. It's been made incredibly clear what he meant. Karl Rove knows what Kerry meant. George Bush knows what Kerry meant. The media knows what Kerry meant. These people aren't functionally retarded. They know. Which means they're deliberately lying. They're deliberately effecting false offense for the troops. The same troops that *they* sent to Iraq.
Think about that. George Bush and much of the GOP are
acting offended
on behalf of the troops that have died. Intentionally drumming up controversy on interpretations of statements they know to be false just so they can pretend. They are intentionally reveling in false indignation just so they can play pretend nobility for the troops they sent into combat.
I don't understand how every single family with members in the military doesn't find that the most offensive, obscene, and grotesque display of political cynicism ever. How the fuck are you people not burning down the White House? They're
pretending to be offended at a misinterpretation that everyone involved knows to be false on behalf of your friends and family that have died to score political points. They're using you in the most cynical fashion. You and your family in the military are nothing more than a means to power to these people. Jesus christ, kick them out.
