That's Me In The Corner...

Chade on 13/4/2010 at 03:03

Quote Posted by Epos Nix

Even if you don't believe in the Bible's version of Original Sin, it should be pretty obvious that an event similar to it must have happened along the way.

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So, no evidence. I'm merely trying to provide a framework for the idea of original sin.

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I attempt to find alternative view points that perhaps allow the words of the Bible to mesh with that thing we call Reality.

What? :confused:

As far as I can see you've taken three posts to go from "it's obvious that the bible is true" to "the bible isn't true but I'm trying to invent some way of pretending that it is".

LATE EDIT:

I just realised I haven't actually commented on your story Fett. This is only because I don't have any particular comment worthy of such a tale. The stuff you've done is bloody amazing, and helps me realise what a sheltered life I've had.

Epos Nix on 13/4/2010 at 03:15

I was never arguing for the validity of the Bible. To me the entire thing is like a puzzle box waiting for the right perspective to crack it. I enjoy applying modern knowledge to archaic principles to see if I can find a working framework to make it all make sense. If I can't, so be it. But if I find an idea that works I like to see how many others I can pull out of the scripture.

Like fett said, this is in no way kosher to any current understanding of the Bible. But as I said earlier, the current understanding of the Bible is lacking as is evidenced by the number of people who just don't get it. You'll notice that one of Jesus' most oft used sayings is "He who has an ear, let him hear." I take that as a challenge.

As for me personally, I primarily lean towards Buddhist tenants but I see a lot of truth in the Bible. Whether or not this Truth is coincidental or not is irrelevant... I'm just offering viewpoints here.

fett on 13/4/2010 at 03:29

...which is why I should respectfully remove myself from the debate, which is not why I posted any of this to being with. It was simply to explain something that happened to me that many here have expressed interest in. Frankly, I've had several lifetimes of these types of discussions and I'm ambivalent about them at this point.

@Epos - You're not saying anything I haven't heard before. I don't begrudge your interpretation of it. I was merely trying to point out that, as with any piece of ancient literature, especially those of a religious nature, the intent of the author is the starting point. You've assumed an intent upon the author(s) of Genesis that is so utterly foreign and even blasphemous to their culture and philosophy that there is no way to reconcile it with the text itself. This is basic interpretation, hermeneutics if you will, practiced by linguists and literary scholars the world over, not some weird literal interpretation I'm clinging to.

Bottom line, it's ridiculous to say, "but maybe it was meant metaphorically, not literally!" when the very passage you quoted above is intended by the context to be 100% literal. You can take it metaphorically if you want - that's your business, but it wasn't "meant" that way because it's not written that way. If you were quoting from the Psalms or Revelation, I'd give you a metaphorical pass. But it just doesn't fly in Genesis, anywhere but the 2nd chapter. I'm not throwing that out to argue with you, I'm stating it as a fact of literary interpretation of the exact passage you are using, based on years of picking apart its very letters to tease every drop of meaning from them, not to mention that Jewish Rabbis have historically taught it that way since it was first written down. You can take it to mean evolution, spontaneous regeneration, or peanut butter and jelly, but that's not the author's intent. And the author's original intent carries far more weight than your 21st century interpretation. It might actually surprise you to know that the verse only addresses individual childbearing as a secondary issue, the primary issue being blood involved in giving birth to new life. It's the very first verse in the Torah that introduces that concept, which is extrapolated on at length in the Levitical code, and realized on the cross in the gospels.

I'm totally not following you on the evolution thing though. Evolution wrote the Bible? Not the Jews? :confused:

I get what you're saying: literal interpretation has done me no good, so why not look at it a different way. So I pose the question: to what ends?

Epos Nix on 13/4/2010 at 03:34

Hey, if God inspired this work, he knew we'd be reading it in the year 2010, with all the translation fuzziness a multi-cultural world brings with it. ;)

I'm bowing out of the debate as well, lest I fag it up any more. (cue cheering)

The Alchemist on 13/4/2010 at 04:49

Thanks fett. :thumb:

Lumina on 13/4/2010 at 06:39

I can't tell you how thrilled I was reading your account here fett. It's refreshing to know that I am not the only one with feelings akin to yours, though my life experience has been somewhat different.

I think what did me in was when my mom (an extremely beautiful and loving person) was diagnosed with a 1 in 3 billion strain of cancer. Prayer really did nothing and I watched that poor dear young lady die in her bed. It was then that I began to question and doubt not the existence of god so much as the idea of The God that I had been fed for my entire young life.

I am 27 and it has taken me this long to understand that it is faith that pulls a person through......faith that I can do this that I am strong enough and that nobody/nothing else is going to do it for me.

I would also like to say that I was a smoker for about 10 years and drank heavily for the past year....I've had my run ins with drugs like anyone else in this world. I quit smoking cold turkey and cut back on the drinking, stopped using recreational drugs about 5 weeks ago. my motivation?????? Definitely not weeks of prayer on my knees....I love running. I can't run and do those things. Again Faith in ME to pull ME through this life.

I found your story very touching and real and amazingly human in every way. Thank you so much.

Angel Dust on 13/4/2010 at 08:51

Fucking amazing post (and follow-ups) fett and I second (third?) the notion that you should take a crack at writing a book about this stuff. I usually steer clear of these kinds of posts because they're usually horrendously over-written but you get right to the truth of the matter and can even make a complete non-believer like myself empathise with your struggles.

Also thanks for elaborating on your wife's journey too because a lot of the way through I was thinking "how's Mrs fett handling this?" :thumb:

Muzman on 14/4/2010 at 21:30

I'm just going to give a GBM-esque "Hurrah" in general as well. I haven't even found the time this week to read the whole thing properly. But skimming impresses me all the same. Cheers for the effort.

d0om on 15/4/2010 at 08:49

Thank you for sharing that with us fett, its a privilege to have you here. (And it only made me cry a little bit)

Matthew on 15/4/2010 at 09:43

Yes, thanks for sharing fett. It's given me quite a bit to think about.